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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The $600 C clip (Read 1491 times)
Kookaburra
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The $600 C clip
01/17/18 at 22:34:14
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What a disaster I have just uncovered. Removing the heads to send away for a top end valve job I discovered a completely wrecked left hand nikasil barrel, a scraped up and deformed piston with the bottom one of the three piston rings fused into the piston and the wrist pin poking out. Out fell half a C clip from the rear end of the piston. There is no sign of the other half but is clear the damage it has done. I am amazed the engine would start and run with such damage. How did this happen ? It may well be that I failed to properly install the new C clip the last time I had the left cylinder apart to install inserts into 2 barrel studs some 1100 kms ago. Whatever the cause (and I can't blame the PO!) it is clear I will need to acquire a new barrel and piston as well as piston rings, C clips and the three cylinder base O rings.  I am considering buying a preloved barrel and piston from MotorWorks but before ordering parts some questions for you gurus:
1. Are left and right barrels identical. (They appear to be and their are no markings to indicate otherwise)
2. Can I replace just one piston? If so should I put new rings in the other one (right hand) given they have only done 6000 kms since new ( I think I will not.)
3. The damaged piston is marked Mahle 138  and 82L41+++.
How important is it to balance the weight of the pistons and therefore do I need to buy 2 matched? (I would obviously prefer not do this)
3. How do you extract pushrod tubes from a barrel or should I just add 2 used pushrod tubes and 2 barrel studs to the shopping list?

I will change the oil, filter and clean and check the sump to try and find the other half of the C clip prior to reassembly.
  

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Tony Smith
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #1 - 01/18/18 at 01:47:04
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Do I have a deal for you.....

When I bought my R65 it had dropped a valve on the RHS, LHS cylinder and piston were undamaged.

I was unable to locate a RHS cylinder and piston so eventually I bought a pair of 79 "iron bore" cylinders and pistons and rebuilt it with those.

I've now bought a 860cc kit and will (when I get around to installing it) retain the "iron bore" cylinders and pistons in case I ever want/need to revert it back to 650cc.

So.... How would you like a LHS cylinder and Piston for the price of post?

You will need to balance the pistons but aside from that it should be good to go.

PM me with your post address.
  

1978 R100RS| 1984 R65 | 1984 XT350 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA
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Kookaburra
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #2 - 01/18/18 at 04:01:22
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Tony you should be in the Australia Day Honours list however it is too late to nominate you for this year. Thanks for your very generous offer and I will PM you shortly with my details. Many thanks for this yang for my yin and look forward to catching up with you in person later in 2018. I will make a further  contribution to the website costs that have enabled this to happen. Go safely you good thing.
  
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wilcom
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #3 - 01/18/18 at 06:52:24
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I love it when the stars align!
  

Joe Wilkerson
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Present:
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past:
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1980  R65          
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1974 R90/6     
1972  R75        
1964 R50
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georgesgiralt
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #4 - 01/18/18 at 08:57:03
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Hello !
If the gift does not make it, I would avoid having the cylinder plated again.
I've checked the French specialist about it and the cost is only marginally cheaper than a new BMW cylinder. I tend to prefer the new cylinder above the salvaged cylinder.
  
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Kookaburra
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #5 - 01/18/18 at 13:51:57
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The photo I posted of the barrel bore is only half the story. There is also damage on the other side of the barrel. I don't think replating was ever a realistic option. A preloved barrel with a six month warranty from Motorworks was going to be my next shot. Just for the schadenfreude I post the pic of the deformed piston
  

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Tony Smith
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #6 - 01/18/18 at 15:39:44
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georgesgiralt wrote on 01/18/18 at 08:57:03:
I tend to prefer the new cylinder above the salvaged cylinder.


Actually, given the choice I'd go with a re-plated cylinder because the OEM cylinders are done to a minimum cost whereas the re-plater's business reputation depends on every re-plated cylinder that leaves his shop. Also the carbide plating on re-plated cylinders will be thicker than OEM with a potentially longer service life.
  

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Tony Smith
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #7 - 01/18/18 at 15:44:05
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wilcom wrote on 01/18/18 at 06:52:24:
I love it when the stars align!


His luck was in that is for sure. Even a year ago I was keeping that cylinder in the hope of finding another to match it with. But it is now kind of redundant.

I thought long and hard before laying the cash down (well pledging plastic) for an 860cc kit, especially given that I have form for putting R80 engines in R65s. In the end I decided that for entirely dishonest (but fun) reasons I want the increased capacity R65 engine to look stock. - I'll explain in a "rants" post in the near future.
  

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Kookaburra
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #8 - 01/19/18 at 14:22:10
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So I removed the oilpan in search of the other half of the $600 C clip which was not to be seen. Instead I found a very thick layer of sludge and a small mountain of gasket sealant droppings. This is the first time I have removed the oil pan since I acquired the bike so I can blame the PO for the gasket goo mountain! It seems at some stage a massive amount of sealant had been used to try and reduce the leaks from the rocker covers.
Moving on to an inspection of the oil drained from the oil filter chamber, it was full of bright specks of non magnetic metal.  This is where much of the Nikasil scraped by the piston from the left barrel has ended up.
So I have removed and cleaned the 20% blocked strainer screen and snugged up the bolts.
Now waiting on the arrival of the generosity from Tony Smith OAM and hoping his piston has a minus mark on the crown to match my existing good one.
  

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Tony Smith
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #9 - 01/19/18 at 14:59:14
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I located the parts yesterday and will be going to the PO this morning. If it is clean enough (got to draw the line somewhere) I'll grab the data from the piston crown.

  

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Tony Smith
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #10 - 01/19/18 at 20:55:29
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Posted today, expect them in one week according to lady postmistress.
  

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Mrclubike
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #11 - 01/19/18 at 21:14:15
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O My
That is a lot of silicone in the pan
Personally I would completely remove and disassemble that motor  and wash it out with soap and hot water
Blow out all the passages and check the bearings
It is a small job compared to a car engine
You will still  find Nickasil particulars in your oil even after you have changed it
How did the oil filter look 
Did it  completely clog and go into bypass
  

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Kookaburra
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #12 - 01/21/18 at 03:58:58
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Love your work Tony. I hope the lady postmistress is right but I have plenty to do in the meantime and I still awaiting the return of the refurbished heads.

In response to mrclubike. The Mahle Ox35 one piece filter was  only some 1100 km old and it had not collapsed. I have yet to pull it apart for close inspection. How do you tell if the filter was completely clogged and went into bypass?
  
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Barry
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #13 - 01/21/18 at 04:28:50
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I suspect it would have collapsed if it had been completely clogged.  The filter goes into bypass to some degree at every cold start in any case.

Look at how thick 20W50 can be when cold. It falls from almost 3000 cSt at 0 Deg C to 18.8 cSt at 100 Deg C. It wouldn't surprise me if all the oil went through bypass when it's very cold.





  

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5W40_vs_20W50.png

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Mrclubike
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #14 - 01/21/18 at 08:48:14
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Another reason to go ahead and completely disassemble the motor is to check the timing chain 
The PO may have mucked around in there to

I get a sick feeling Every time look at the picture of your oil pan  Cry
Blackish grey looking oil is not good   
It should be a brown color

  

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Mrclubike
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #15 - 01/21/18 at 08:53:03
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make sure you balance the pistons
do no rely on the markings
A small digital scale is cheep

This the scale i used
What you want is repeat ability and it was very accurate
  

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scale.PNG

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Tony Smith
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #16 - 01/21/18 at 10:42:28
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Mrclubike wrote on 01/21/18 at 08:48:14:
I get a sick feeling Every time look at the picture of your oil pan  Cry


Here's one for you to really worry about then Smiley

(Sat for twenty years, sump full of silastic and large pieces of what used to be RHS Piston crown)


  

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sump.JPG

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Mrclubike
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #17 - 01/21/18 at 22:59:20
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Tony Smith wrote on 01/21/18 at 10:42:28:
Mrclubike wrote on 01/21/18 at 08:48:14:
I get a sick feeling Every time look at the picture of your oil pan  Cry




Here's one for you to really worry about then Smiley

(Sat for twenty years, sump full of silastic and large pieces of what used to be RHS Piston crown)



O my I think I am going to have to sit down
I am felling light headed  Undecided and sick to my stomach
  

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Kookaburra
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #18 - 01/23/18 at 17:57:45
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Mrclubike I replaced the timing chain and associated bits about 5k ago. It was very carefully and properly re-assembled with minimal use of the recommended sealants.
That's a very scary graph Barry's has posted. Only saving grace is ambient starting temps in Australia are likely to be on the upside of 10C!
At the initial oil and filter change I did on acquiring the bike, the filter was collapsed. With the benefit of hindsight I should have pulled the pan then to see what was going on. Anyway we learn as we go along.

Phone call today saying my reconditioned heads are on the way back from the Queensland guru shop with not only new valves and bits but the faces machined, the exhaust nut threads and the rockers refurbished. Starting to get excited and a little anxious.


  
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Tony Smith
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #19 - 01/23/18 at 18:21:47
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Kookaburra wrote on 01/23/18 at 17:57:45:
Phone call today saying my reconditioned heads are on the way back from the Queensland guru shop with not only new valves and bits but the faces machined, the exhaust nut threads and the rockers refurbished.


Out of curiousity Mark Morrisey or Ray Peake?
  

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Tony Smith
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #20 - 01/23/18 at 21:06:25
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Mrclubike wrote on 01/21/18 at 22:59:20:
O my I think I am going to have to sit down
I am felling light headed  Undecided and sick to my stomach



And here, for the "finale" is what I found when I removed the brown oil, sludge and piston remains.....Yes my MPO was a clever guy, he managed to crack the sump and instead of having it properly repaired, he reached for the trusty tube of silastic.

And you know the truly funny thing?

This is probably the only legitimate use I've ever seen for silastic on a BMW. That leak patch had held for at least 20 years and you know what? I put it back on the bike with a clear conscience and a mental memo to avoid grounding the sump anywhere.

I've had a replacement sump for a couple of years now, but just haven't got around to fitting it - I will when the 860cc kit goes in, along with a offset mount oil cooler.
  

sump_silastic.JPG ( 192 KB | 18 Downloads )
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Kookaburra
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #21 - 01/30/18 at 05:30:25
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Tony to satisfy the curiosity, Ray Peake, who was highly recommended by a number of people, got the gig to refurb the heads. He reported telephonically they were a mess.

I arrived back today from a flying trip to Melbourne to find the well trained posty had hidden a box on the verandah. It contained a left hand cylinder and piston for a BMW R65 with a negative mark on the crown (which is actually a very positive start if you get my meaning given the undamaged piston on my machine also has a negative marking.) The stars still seem to be aligning....

I am still writing the submission for the new years Honours list but I need to find others besides myself who can attest to your communitarian spirit if not your good character (which I suspect may be a little more difficult.) 

In the meantime a million thanks and blessings to you and I will get to the delicate business of weighing and balancing pistons tomorrow.

  
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Kookaburra
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #22 - 02/05/18 at 12:58:01
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Have now managed to overcome internet connection problems, pay Tony for the postage and clean up both the donor piston and the good one . Both marked negative but using the electronic kitchen scales the donor piston was 0.4 gm lighter than the original. Much careful filing later I have got the weight difference down to 0.3 gm which by my calculation is 0.9% difference in weight. Now getting concerned about where to take further material off the piston.
So gurus, is 0.3 gms a significant difference in weight and if so, from where should I file further material?


  
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Tony Smith
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #23 - 02/05/18 at 14:55:24
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Payment received - thank you.

Here is a "balancing Pistons 101" youtube to waste your time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YMMQnBdVW4
  

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Kookaburra
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #24 - 02/05/18 at 20:26:48
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Watched the youtube posted by Tony and there is no way I am going anywhere near the inside of the piston crown with a drill and I do not have a drill stand anyway. I have recalculated the % difference in total weights (now including the wrist pin) and it is 0.65%. I think I can live with it but could not live with stuffing up the piston.

Cleaning Tony's cylinder barrel up to fit I notice there is a small amount of damage to the nikasil liner very near the top of the stroke. Looking in the mouths of gift horses comes to mind but I will be using it.
  

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Tony Smith
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #25 - 02/06/18 at 05:17:40
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I'm embarrassed. I've never cleaned that pot up and didn't realize the damage.

  

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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #26 - 02/06/18 at 19:42:40
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I wonder what causes that type damage to the cylinder wall
Corrosion maybe from sitting?
  

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Tony Smith
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #27 - 02/06/18 at 21:10:34
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Mrclubike wrote on 02/06/18 at 19:42:40:
I wonder what causes that type damage to the cylinder wall
Corrosion maybe from sitting?


Given other things I've found, I'd suspect the MPO simply ran it until bits of ceramic fell off the spark plug.
  

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Kookaburra
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #28 - 02/17/18 at 18:25:30
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'Two steps forward one step back' is a  quote from a guru in a much older forum than this but which sums up progress on the $600 C clip saga. Having cleaned up the Tony Smith benefit cylinder with matching piston and then attached the Ray Peake beautifully refurbed head I was in a careful  process of  four stage torquing of the left cylinder when the upper inlet side stud went soft on me at under 11 foot pounds.  So it was another call to the peripatetic thread doctor to come and helicoil the stud without blocking the oilway that feeds into the stud channel.  I swear the thread doctor could find his way to my place blindfold. This was number 4 of 4 studs on the left side that have required fettling over the last four years. 
So finally all re-re-assembled and torqued up to 23 ft pounds, (even more conservative than Snow Bum) the valve lash set and with a clean sump, Penrite 20-60 oil and a new filter I turned the engine over until the oil light went out. I turned the petrol on and using minimal choke I hit the starter. It always seems such a miracle to a shade mechanic like me when the bike actually starts after being in many bits in boxes.  15 seconds at 3000 revs and a further 30 seconds at 3,500-400 revs and then immediate shut down for a leak check. No leaks and more than enough excitement for one day.

With the various comments of Mrclubike on balanced pistons, dirty sumps and potentially fouled oilways ringing in my ears I am preparing for the 30km running in ride with some trepidation.



  
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Tony Smith
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #29 - 02/18/18 at 03:30:21
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Congratulations!

Looking forward to the "1st ride report".
  

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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #30 - 02/18/18 at 18:15:10
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I recommend changing the oil out again when engine is hot and all the junk is still suspended in the oil
  

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Tony Smith
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #31 - 02/19/18 at 01:11:07
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Mrclubike wrote on 02/18/18 at 18:15:10:
I recommend changing the oil out again when engine is hot and all the junk is still suspended in the oil


What he said....

I'd also check the tappets regularly for the first few weeks - like you I am running fairly low cylinder head torque - I'd check that at 100, 250, 500 and 1,000km - don't slack off to re-tension - just put the torque wrench on the nut and see if it moves before giving whatever signal your wrench gives that the set tension has been reached.
  

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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #32 - 02/19/18 at 18:34:04
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Tony Smith wrote on 02/19/18 at 01:11:07:
Mrclubike wrote on 02/18/18 at 18:15:10:
I recommend changing the oil out again when engine is hot and all the junk is still suspended in the oil


What he said....

I'd also check the tappets regularly for the first few weeks - like you I am running fairly low cylinder head torque - I'd check that at 100, 250, 500 and 1,000km - don't slack off to re-tension - just put the torque wrench on the nut and see if it moves before giving whatever signal your wrench gives that the set tension has been reached.


I agree with Tony  Grin
  

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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #33 - 02/21/18 at 14:50:25
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35 km on a 27c day out and into Sydney. Dodging the dangerous Sunday arvo traffic on the tollways that have encircled the city  trying to go from throttle full closed to throttle full open and keep the revs in the suggested band. Bike seemed buzzier and stronger than previously but that may just be auto suggestion (bad pun intended). On return to base I drained the oil and pulled the filter out without burning myself. Oil was starting to discolour and noticed a few specks of gasket goo.  No obvious signs of metal in the oil and minimal fluff on the magnetic drain plug. Then the overnight wait for the cool down such as it is in a Sydney summer.
On the morrow I checked the valve clearances (which had closed marginally) before retorquing and resetting. Then the curse of V I Lenin strikes again. This time it is a stud on the right cylinder which has gone soft.  So I call the stud doctor and pull off  the right cylinder to await his expert ministrations and further invoice. We are dealing with steel studs in 35 year old aluminium which has been subject to some odd strains over the years. Hope this not the start of a four stud saga in the right cylinder.
So now back together again with new oil and filter, retorqued heads and reset tappets and preparing for a 100km running in ride.
Thanks for the tip about checking the head torque without doing the 'loosen before retorquing' thing. I will adopt this practice on my return as well as the tappet adjustment intervals suggested by Tony.
  
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Tony Smith
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Posts: 1967
Location: Cairns, Australia
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #34 - 02/22/18 at 00:53:44
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Gee but you are having a lot of stud problems with that bike. Maybe have your thread doctor do the lot in one go to save yourself the call out fee?
  

1978 R100RS| 1984 R65 | 1984 XT350 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA
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Kookaburra
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Location: Sydney, Australia
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Re: The $600 C clip
Reply #35 - 02/23/18 at 07:48:41
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Did consider getting the stud doctor to do all four right studs but frankly didn't have the readies.
Yesterday a 100 km run rolling the throttle on and off and dicing with the B doubles on the tollway out of the city. Turned down the tick over and rebalanced the carbs on return. On the morrow retorqued the heads to an all round 23 ft/lb  and adjusted the tappets. The sticky Penrite 20w/60 is a lovely straw colour.
Beautiful- the bike has never gone as well as this. So probably time to draw a veil over this chapter with a shot of the remnant of the $600 circlip that dropped out of the original destroyed left piston.
Hopefully a final query. I will be checking the torque and tappets at 250 ,500 and 1,000km. With new piston rings in one barrel and new valves and springs in both, what should be the final running in and oil/filter change regime from here?
A big thanks again to the generous Tony Smith who made this rebuild possible and other gurus mrclubike and Barry 45er for solid advice along the way.
  

_600_circlip.JPG ( 305 KB | 18 Downloads )
_600_circlip.JPG
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