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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Should this even be running? (Read 1229 times)
wilcom
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Should this even be running?
04/03/18 at 14:51:25
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My new to me(I have about 6-700  miles on it)1984 R65LS has been running fine since I purchased it. I initially changed all the fluids when I brought it home but did not do any tune up stuff as it was running so well. So far it has always cranked fine, needing a little choke in the morning. Runs smooth idles smooth, no issues.

I say no issues, but over all I think my 1979 R65 had a little more torque and had more power at speed(accelerating from 60 mph in high gear)

I'm heading out on a 700 my trip this weekend and thought I better go ahead  and adjust the valves and Timing and make it spot on.

I found that the right exhaust was at .0025 and the left was .006. I adjusted both to .008. The intakes were also different settings left was .005 and the right was .002. I set them to .005.

Now I moved to the timing and hit the mark with timing light and find at idle I'm showing the "Z" mark indicating full advance. I revved it 3500 and the light shows the flywheel is moving but to a spot that there is no mark. The advance mechanism is working.

This is SO far off of what it should be that I question my findings and have stopped to gain some more knowledge before I start adjusting. I looked at the "bean can" and it is in the middle of it's adjustment range.

SHOULD THE BIKE EVEN IDLE SET WITH 32 DEGREES OF ADVANCE!?

The bike idles fine, a little lumpy, but not enough for me to break out the spanners.
  

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beancan_adjust.jpg

Joe Wilkerson
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Barry
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #1 - 04/03/18 at 16:16:15
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wilcom wrote on 04/03/18 at 14:51:25:
SHOULD THE BIKE EVEN IDLE SET WITH 32 DEGREES OF ADVANCE!?


Even if it would idle a tougher question is would it start with that much advance. I some how doubt it. My inclination would be to distrust the timing light and do a static timing check. Easy for me with points but a diffrent proposition with electronic ignition. It can be done though with a simple circuit.

https://robfrankham.com/hall-effect-tester



  

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Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45
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Rob Valdez 79 R65
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #2 - 04/03/18 at 16:51:36
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The '79s were the most powerful of the bunch, if I remember correctly, but probably not enough for you to notice.

That could be an indicator that the LS has an issue.
  
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wilcom
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #3 - 04/03/18 at 17:26:29
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Barry wrote on 04/03/18 at 16:16:15:
diffrent proposition with electronic ignition. It can be done though with a simple circuit.


The ckt is easy enough to cluge together but the connector is an issue. Is there any off the shelf connector that will plug into the bean can side of the wiring?

  

Joe Wilkerson
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #4 - 04/03/18 at 18:17:28
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How does it idle if you set the timing to the "S" mark at 1000rpm
Then with the light on it rev it up to  4000 rpm and you should see it go towards the "Z"

Or do it the other way and set it to The "Z" at 4K and let it slow down and you should see it go towards the "S" mark

If not your advance is stuck

The later is the way you should set it
Let the LOW idle timing fall   where it wants to and make sure the High speed timing is at the "Z" mark (32deg)



My experience has been the advance wears and it start give to much advance (more than 26 deg)  6 + 26 = 32deg total

I am not positive but i think the clutch carrier can be put back onto the crank  wrong and cause the timing marks to be off
I think if the carrier was clocked wrong you would not see any marks at all because it would be off by at least 72deg
  

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Mrclubike
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #5 - 04/03/18 at 18:24:10
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Like Barry said
I dont think it would idle very good and I don't think you could get it started

With that much advance it would kick  back and possibly brake the nose off of the starter
It would definitely spark knock that is for sure if the advance is working
  

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wilcom
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #6 - 04/03/18 at 20:24:04
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I was able to adjust the timing buy retarding it to the stop. It started and ran like dog %^#$. I'm putting it back where it was originally for now.

Building that static timer is not a easy as I thought. With the closure of almost all of the Radio Shacks, there is not a place where I can buy a electronic component within 50 miles of me.

ARRRGH
  

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georgesgiralt
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #7 - 04/04/18 at 01:36:20
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Hello Wilcom,
Have you checked that the flywheel had not been disturbed ?
It is easy as the bolts do not allow for a subtle error.
Remove the spark plugs and check by eye or with a suitable pin that the piston are at TDC. Check that the OT mark is visible on the window and properly centered. This done you will be sure that anything is in correct place.
As per the static gizmo, it is useful to make one as it will allow you to check that the HES is OK or dead and save some dollars buying new parts not needed. Of course a strobe light is way better.
Hope this helps.
P.S. : the pre-1980 R65 was rated at around 45 PS (depending on the marked they were sold) and the post 1980 were around 50 PS. The LS had the same engine as the "plain" R65.

BTW, one can make an engine run with the ignition set wrong, provided the valve lash and the carburetor are tampered accordingly... So if I where you, I would check valve lash at the proper TDC position, then return the carbs to their factory settings and then put the ignition timing at the correct spot and mark it. (It will save time next time the bean can is removed.... ) then proceed from here.
  
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #8 - 04/04/18 at 03:56:03
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You can do static test with nothing more than a test light hooked to power. Hold the light on the negative post of the coil with the switch on, roll the engine over by hand until the light goes out and check where the timing mark are.
  

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wilcom
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #9 - 04/04/18 at 09:47:33
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georgesgiralt wrote on 04/04/18 at 01:36:20:
Have you checked that the flywheel had not been disturbed ?


Good thought. I checked visually in the sparky hole for TDC and looked in the timing hole and there was the OT mark staring me in the face..... that's a good thing.

I did that at 4am this morning as I don't sleep well when baby is on the lift and I am scratching my head over issues.

I did another test that failed.

I pulled the plugs and grounded them on the cylinders and could not get a spark when ignition on and rotating the motor slowly at the rotor. Yet when I spin the motor with the starter, sparks are all over the place. I was trying to do a static timing using the spark at the plug to get me close or see if I was even in the ball park.

I'm baffled why I could not get a spark rotating slowly yet could when spun by the starter??

Where is my brain failing me on this point?
  

Joe Wilkerson
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #10 - 04/04/18 at 10:33:56
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wilcom wrote on 04/03/18 at 17:26:29:
The ckt is easy enough to cluge together but the connector is an issue. Is there any off the shelf connector that will plug into the bean can side of the wiring?


Rob Frankham mentions that it's available in the UK as a "junior power timer connector".  You could try searching for that in the US.



  

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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #11 - 04/04/18 at 19:58:06
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I would get another timing light
Some of the discount auto parts stores may  loan  them out
That way you can check the condition of the advance
  

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wilcom
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #12 - 04/04/18 at 20:02:18
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Mrclubike wrote on 04/04/18 at 19:58:06:
I would get another timing light
Some of the discount auto parts stores may  loan  them out
That way you can check the condition of the advance 


I bought one this morning and the reading is the same z mark at idle    I tightened it back down at that point , it was that way when I opened it up and I can't get it right without jamming the bean can all the way on the stop retarded, which isn't right

  

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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #13 - 04/04/18 at 20:27:40
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Hey Wilcom - I've been looking for the plugs for the same reason as you are. I can't find them and can't get a straight answer as to whether another plug will fit.

I cobbled together a tester and just used small alligator clips.  I'd like to make something a bit more solid.......

Without Radio Shack it is difficult to find small parts.  I was able to get what I didn't have at Fry's, but i know not everyone has those nearby.
  

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wilcom
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #14 - 04/04/18 at 21:26:51
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BPT wrote on 04/04/18 at 20:27:40:
Without Radio Shack


Yes that really hurt. When I'm on the road I used them a lot for incidentals that I forgot or need quickly....

Fry's is 55 miles away through traffic( ARRRGH ). I think I will be at Fry's or close this week end and I will go for slip on pins that fit well, I just don't want them to short together like lil alligators might. If RS had stayed with what got them there they would've been fine, but OH NO , they have to go full cellular and the competition was to great in that market. They had the hobbyist market cornered. Shudda stayed at the strip malls where rent was cheap and I would still be able to buy a hand full of over priced parts and been happy about it.

Be on the look out for a bad wiring harness that we could scavenge the connector!!!
  

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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #15 - 04/04/18 at 22:56:33
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wilcom wrote on 04/04/18 at 09:47:33:
I'm baffled why I could not get a spark rotating slowly yet could when spun by the starter??

My take is it requires some speed to generate the magnet flux to activate the trigger
  
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wilcom
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #16 - 04/04/18 at 23:04:18
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skippyc wrote on 04/04/18 at 22:56:33:
My take is it requires some speed to generate the magnet flux to activate the trigger
                   


Thanks Skippyc that makes sense. One more unknown wiped out

  

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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #17 - 04/05/18 at 01:10:17
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I had some alligator clips that had a rubber covering.  Kind of a pain to open and close in the tight area of the that plug but it worked and kept them from touching.  I got some connectors from my local electrical supply and was going to wire those up and cover them with heat shrink.

Last week I called Newark and they have what appears to be the bike side of the plug, but not the one that goes on the bean can.  So that might work if it fits.   I need to order a few other things to make it worthwhile from there, I'll let you know if I come up with anything.

The biggest problem I came across other than the plugs were resistors.  Fry's has a bunch, but was out of the size I needed. Nobody could tell me where else to check.  On my way out I saw a guy working on the stereo display, chatted with him a bit, and he ended up going into their shop and gave me a strip of a few. They were unmarked, but he was pretty sure they'd work.  I had to get online to decipher what they were, but they ended up being correct.

I'm not sure why they've disappeared but it'd be really nice to be able to find the bean can end of the plug, I have a spare I wanted to clean up.
  

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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #18 - 04/05/18 at 05:01:26
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Hello,
So, it appears that your bean can is stuck in full advance. Time for you to open it.
You can't get a spark when turning the crank slowly because the ICU prevents it. It cuts itself out to save the output transistors from dying and it needs a couple of impulse from the bean can to activate. These impulses must be in a short period of time. Clever, eh ?
Now that you've checked everything, open the bean can and service it.
I buy my AMP Junior timer connectors from Kalitec in Germany because I live in France Wink and they are cheap.
https://www.kabelschuhe-shop.de/Connectors/AMP-JPT:::314_364.html
  
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wilcom
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #19 - 04/05/18 at 07:04:21
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georgesgiralt wrote on 04/05/18 at 05:01:26:
So, it appears that your bean can is stuck in full advance.


When I rev the motor I see the mark moving on the flywheel/carrier. it seems to be advancing fine.
  

Joe Wilkerson
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georgesgiralt
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #20 - 04/05/18 at 07:46:42
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Advancing fine maybe. But there is a problem in this bean can.
And you won't find it until you open it ...
  
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wilcom
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #21 - 04/05/18 at 08:24:48
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georgesgiralt wrote on 04/05/18 at 07:46:42:
And you won't find it until you open it ...
                   


You may be/probably correct George, but I'm not going any deeper down this rabbit hole for now.

I'm buttoning it back up and heading for Arizona in the morning. Maybe by the time I get back(always optimistic) it will have righted itself or be a puddle of molten aluminum on the California/Arizona Border.

As it stand right now, I think the bike has a problem because of readings I'm seeing, not because of running poorly. I still suspect "I am the problem" and not the bike. I'm not convinced what I am seeing is actually happening.

Think about it, if what I am seeing is true, then the bike is performing well with initial advance set at 30 degrees and at 3000rpm I'm running around  in the neighborhood of 60 degrees of advance with cheap assed fuel and not pinging and starting on the first kick/button push.

I have to have a better understanding of what is going on before I operate on a patient that says he feels well and just ran a 4 minute mile.
  

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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #22 - 04/05/18 at 10:00:16
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Georgesgiralt - will those plugs mate with the originals?
  

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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #23 - 04/05/18 at 11:31:24
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Yes, BPT, they do. AMP heard their customers and replaced the bail wire with a sturdy clip acting as a spring. Easier to clip, and remove but a bit bulkier. They ARE the actual AMP product.
  
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #24 - 04/05/18 at 12:43:29
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Thanks, Georges.  Now if I could find some in the US!  Would you have a part number by any chance?
  

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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #25 - 04/05/18 at 14:56:00
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Google gives me Farnell as a supplier when fed with "amp JPT connector" ...
So I'll think you'll find a distributor in the US. AMP IS American, right ?
Have a nice day !
P.S. : The pins are a pita to crimp if you do not have the proper ratchet crimping tool and die... So buy more pins than you actually need. Just a thought .... Smiley
  
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #26 - 04/05/18 at 15:46:13
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I'm not sure why Georges but this particular thing is not easy to find.  A few places have the plug that goes to the bike, but the one for the bean can is the one that nobody carries.

I talked to a tech at Newark (which I think is connected to Farnell;  maybe Farnell is UK?) and he couldn't explain why they had one end but not the other.  They can get them but the minimum order was 2000.  A few more than I needed......    Shocked

There is one more place here locally that said they show a large number coming in.  I will check with them next week and see if that's true.

There are several options to replace with 3 pin plugs, just not many that will fit with the originals.  I'd rather have the original if possible.
  

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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #27 - 04/05/18 at 16:09:06
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BPT wrote on 04/05/18 at 15:46:13:
I'd rather have the original if possible.
                   


It's an awfully bulky connection for 3 wires. I think if I did make a change I would definitely put more length on the engine side and less on the bean can side so you work on the darn thing. My fingers don't do well jammed up there working in the dark. The bail is suspect that I would get it back on right so I am doing one wrap with Gorilla tape and tossing the bail.

  

Joe Wilkerson
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #28 - 04/05/18 at 16:17:19
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I am suspending the trouble shooting of the elusive "extra" 30 degrees of timing thing. I'm now at the point,  like George suggested, diving into the bean can and the first thing I want to do is just swap it with a known good bean can and see what happens

Larry Stonestreet is having an "Airheads" Tech Day about 4 miles from me 30 days from now. Since the bike is not complaining about anything I will wait and go at it "hammer & Tong" on his tech day.

I'm buttoning it up and riding it to Arizona in the morning and back on Sunday( about 700 miles) I'm optimistic about my chances of returning.  Grin

I'll send you guys a pic along the way

Thanks for your suggestions and input!!
  

Joe Wilkerson
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #29 - 04/05/18 at 17:13:51
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"It's an awfully bulky connection for 3 wires. I think if I did make a change I would definitely put more length on the engine side and less on the bean can side so you work on the darn thing. My fingers don't do well jammed up there working in the dark. The bail is suspect that I would get it back on right so I am doing one wrap with Gorilla tape and tossing the bail."

I agree Wilcom, they definitely could have set the wiring up a little better in there.  The only reason I was looking for the original style plug was so that I could connect it to different things - the one I have, a spare, and a tester.  Plus I'm figuring it will be a pain to add a new plug to the bike for the reasons we just mentioned.

Not a huge deal, I'll replace them if I have to.  I had no idea it'd be this hard to find a simple plug though.  I'm not sure if you've heard of Mouser but that is who is supposed to be getting some in the next week or so.  They are huge like Newark and have millions of things.  They happen to be located in my region so I can place small orders and pick up from them.  I'll let you know if they come through for me.
  

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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #30 - 04/05/18 at 20:11:37
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BPT wrote on 04/05/18 at 12:43:29:
Thanks, Georges.  Now if I could find some in the US!  Would you have a part number by any chance?


Here you go
  

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Buzzing along on my tubeless 82 R65
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wilcom
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #31 - 04/05/18 at 21:30:47
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BPT wrote on 04/05/18 at 17:13:51:
I'm not sure if you've heard of Mouser


No I don't know anyone anymore. A couple of life times ago I had a 2nd Class Radio/Telephone License and worked on Microwave links and air to ground stuff & ordered lots of parts...... but now days I'm/was, just a radio shack kinda guy Grin
  

Joe Wilkerson
Telephone man with a splash of Data
Menifee, CA

Present:
1984 BMW R65LS "Herr Head"
past:
1979  R65   
1980  R65          
1982 R80RT 
1974 R90/6     
1972  R75        
1964 R50
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georgesgiralt
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #32 - 04/06/18 at 02:41:56
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Well, the male part, if you look at it carefully is often molded at the factory.  So AMP sell a huge lot of the industrial version (mold, plastic, license, etc...) and not so much of the discrete version ...
Have you asked Kalitec about shipping to the USA ? The set is in a small plastic pouch and can be put in an envelope reducing costs to a minimum. I've found them very helpful (I asked for dies for my ratchet crimping tool and they  had none. But a week later, bingo! the dies where on their site, at "a price"  Wink
  
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #33 - 04/06/18 at 17:47:16
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wilcom wrote on 04/03/18 at 17:26:29:
[

The ckt is easy enough to cluge together but the connector is an issue. Is there any off the shelf connector that will plug into the bean can side of the wiring?




JPT 3-way )JPT stands for "Junior Power Timer" - alternatively a trip to your local electronics supply company would fit you out with a set of alligator clip leads which would be perfectly adequate for testing purposes.


To jump in on your other problem - no way is your bike idling with 32 degrees of advance - some numb-nutted idiot has put your flywheel on out of time.

You can set the timing with a vacuum gauge, or you could use a scribe to make a temporary TDC mark and then wing your timing marks (you would have to be monstrously wrong to do any damage - and if you over advance it, your engine will tell you fairly promptly)

What I would do is mark TDC on the alternator rotor bolt and then make a temporary 90 degree mark from that - half that is 45 degrees, so a tad under that would put your fully advanced timing (the only one worth worrying about) firmly in the ball park.
  

1978 R100RS| 1984 R65 | 1984 XT350 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #34 - 04/06/18 at 18:29:32
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Tony Smith wrote on 04/06/18 at 17:47:16:

To jump in on your other problem - no way is your bike idling with 32 degrees of advance - some numb-nutted idiot has put your flywheel on out of time.


That is what i was thinking
But if that was the case the timing marks would be off by 72 deg
The timing marks would not show up at all when timing with the light
Also he says he checked For TDC   roughly while looking thru the spark plug hole and said the OT mark appeared fairly close

So i am thinking  there is some sort of electrical noise messing  with  the timing light

That is why I say "IFM" (Its "F"ing Magic)when it comes to electricity
  

Buzzing along on my tubeless 82 R65
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #35 - 04/06/18 at 19:34:05
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Mrclubike wrote on 04/06/18 at 18:29:32:
Also he says he checked For TDC   roughly while looking thru the spark plug hole and said the OT mark appeared fairly close




Missed that! Agree, weird electrical intereference with timing light - solution suggestion :- try a different timing light.
  

1978 R100RS| 1984 R65 | 1984 XT350 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #36 - 04/06/18 at 23:58:18
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Or plug the timing light on an external battery NOT connected in any way to the bike.
  
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #37 - 04/07/18 at 00:06:13
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  I'm in Arizona now talking on my phone so bear with me I did check for the top dead center and it was you like to see the OT Mark in the hole I bought another Fat timing light it's same as the other I use both cylinders to do the pickup and I went and bought a brand new timing light and checked it no change and I got the Arizona on that same bike running 6000 RPM for 300 miles never missed a beat
  

Joe Wilkerson
Telephone man with a splash of Data
Menifee, CA

Present:
1984 BMW R65LS "Herr Head"
past:
1979  R65   
1980  R65          
1982 R80RT 
1974 R90/6     
1972  R75        
1964 R50
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #38 - 04/07/18 at 00:08:31
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  I'm in Arizona now talking on my phone so bear with me I did check for the top dead center and it was you like to see the OT Mark in the hole I bought another Fat timing light it's same as the other I use both cylinders to do the pickup and I went and bought a brand new timing light and checked it no change and I got the Arizona on that same bike running 6000 RPM for 300 miles never missed a beat
  

Joe Wilkerson
Telephone man with a splash of Data
Menifee, CA

Present:
1984 BMW R65LS "Herr Head"
past:
1979  R65   
1980  R65          
1982 R80RT 
1974 R90/6     
1972  R75        
1964 R50
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #39 - 04/07/18 at 00:09:38
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Sorry for the voice screw-ups the recognition isn't always so true but I wanted to add that I used an auxiliary battery to on the timing light with a charger on it
  

Joe Wilkerson
Telephone man with a splash of Data
Menifee, CA

Present:
1984 BMW R65LS "Herr Head"
past:
1979  R65   
1980  R65          
1982 R80RT 
1974 R90/6     
1972  R75        
1964 R50
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #40 - 04/07/18 at 15:36:00
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wilcom wrote on 04/07/18 at 00:08:31:
    I bought another Fat timing light it's same as the other I use both cylinders to do the pickup 


Are you running both plug wires thru the inductive pick up at the same time

You only need to run one wire thru it at a time makes no difference which one
  

Buzzing along on my tubeless 82 R65
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #41 - 04/07/18 at 20:42:54
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.Mrclubike wrote on 04/07/18 at 15:36:00:
wilcom wrote on 04/07/18 at 00:08:31:
    I bought another Fat timing light it's same as the other I use both cylinders to do the pickup 
I meant to say I use both one at each time left and right

Are you running both plug wires thru the inductive pick up at the same time

You only need to run one wire thru it at a time makes no difference which one 

  

Joe Wilkerson
Telephone man with a splash of Data
Menifee, CA

Present:
1984 BMW R65LS "Herr Head"
past:
1979  R65   
1980  R65          
1982 R80RT 
1974 R90/6     
1972  R75        
1964 R50
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #42 - 04/12/18 at 00:19:05
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wilcom wrote on 04/05/18 at 16:17:19:
I'm buttoning it up and riding it to Arizona in the morning and back on Sunday( about 700 miles) I'm optimistic about my chances of returning.


I did close to 800 miles over the three days and it ran fine, started normally every time. Most of the time I was running at 5800-6000 rpm and was indicating just shy of 80mph. This kept me faster than the trucks and slower than the cars.

I'll wait for the tech get together in 3 weeks. I think I'm searching for "why am I reading this" and not why is the bike ill timed.
  

Joe Wilkerson
Telephone man with a splash of Data
Menifee, CA

Present:
1984 BMW R65LS "Herr Head"
past:
1979  R65   
1980  R65          
1982 R80RT 
1974 R90/6     
1972  R75        
1964 R50
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #43 - 06/26/18 at 08:19:05
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wilcom wrote on 04/12/18 at 00:19:05:
I did close to 800 miles over the three days and it ran fine, started normally every time. Most of the time I was running at 5800-6000 rpm and was indicating just shy of 80mph. This kept me faster than the trucks and slower than the cars.

I'll wait for the tech get together in 3 weeks. I think I'm searching for "why am I reading this" and not why is the bike ill timed.


Well the Tech session was drawing near and it was idling a lil lumpy so I thought it would be a good idea to adjust the idle a tad. Didn't want to show up to the BMW brain trust without doing as much as I could to make the bike right.....{{WRONG}}

In a short time I went from idling rough to NOT IDLING AT ALL. If there was ever a poster boy for "If it Ain't broke don't Fix it" I'm perfect for the job.

I didn't make it to the tech session with fouled carbs but started myself on a new issue of freshening up the carbs. I ordered new floats, float needles, gaskets and O-rings and a jug of Berryman's and put the carbs on the bench.

After much agony and having the carbs off and on multiple times I have a smooth idle and no off idle lag and runs thru the gears fine up to 65 mph.

I have the throttle cables adjusted where I have a little slack at idle I have checked the butterflies(did not remove during the regasketing)and positively no light showing in the closed position. The chokes are totally off.

I used 1/2 a turn to set up the carbs and the bike idles at 900 rpm warm. Very smooth idle, no lumps or dropped beats, just perfect..............now here is where my understanding of the carbs runs off and hides.

I checked the idle adjustment screws and I cannot effect any change in the idle.

Shouldn't I be able to screw the adjusters in and kill the fuel flow and stop the motor? I read where you run the adjustment in until it falls off and out til it falls off and go back to the happy spot in the middle. With mine if seems all happy!
  

Joe Wilkerson
Telephone man with a splash of Data
Menifee, CA

Present:
1984 BMW R65LS "Herr Head"
past:
1979  R65   
1980  R65          
1982 R80RT 
1974 R90/6     
1972  R75        
1964 R50
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #44 - 06/26/18 at 10:45:05
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Quote:
Shouldn't I be able to screw the adjusters in and kill the fuel flow


I thought the adjusters control air flow instead of fuel flow.  A bad oring can play havoc.
  

81 R65 & 16 R1200GS
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #45 - 06/26/18 at 12:02:58
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R65Guy wrote on 06/26/18 at 10:45:05:
I thought the adjusters control air flow instead of fuel flow.  A bad oring can play havoc.


As CV carbs they are primarily considered to flow fuel so turning them in weakens the mixture and out richens which is the opposite of what air screws do on slide carbs.

To be pedantic, due to the auxiliary air jet they actually flow a pre-mix of air and fuel.
  

Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #46 - 06/26/18 at 12:38:59
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R65Guy wrote on 06/26/18 at 10:45:05:
thought the adjusters control air flow instead of fuel flow.


I'm going back over that now... I have two YOUTUBE animations , one shows CV carb with the idle screw metering the fuel, the 2nd shows the idle jet metering at a point where you have both fuel and air,,,,, have not found a R65 BMW Specific diagram yet. I do not have the patience for Snow Bums site right now. I'll continue searching the Web for a  understandable diagram.
  

Joe Wilkerson
Telephone man with a splash of Data
Menifee, CA

Present:
1984 BMW R65LS "Herr Head"
past:
1979  R65   
1980  R65          
1982 R80RT 
1974 R90/6     
1972  R75        
1964 R50
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #47 - 06/26/18 at 13:56:49
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No question that A Bing CV mixture screw flows a pre-mix of fuel and air. This isn't actually a Bing but it shows it nicely with a colour legend and I guarantee a Bing works the same way. 
  

thm_carb4_005.gif ( 36 KB | 4 Downloads )
thm_carb4_005.gif

Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #48 - 06/26/18 at 14:56:07
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R65Guy wrote on 06/26/18 at 10:45:05:
A bad oring can play havoc.
                   


Barry thanks for that diagram, that was one of the animations that I had seen on youTube(very close).

R65Guy.... the O-rings could be my issue. I had a hard time trying to figure out what O-ring went where. None of them seem to fit nicely anywhere, all wanted to be stretched to almost breaking to go on. I might have flubbed the rings. I will get another set and replace them b4 I go any farther.

Thanks Guys
  

Joe Wilkerson
Telephone man with a splash of Data
Menifee, CA

Present:
1984 BMW R65LS "Herr Head"
past:
1979  R65   
1980  R65          
1982 R80RT 
1974 R90/6     
1972  R75        
1964 R50
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #49 - 06/27/18 at 02:12:09
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Hello,
Check your idle needles for wear.
Then gently screw them in, and open them a little (1/2 turn if my memory serves me right).
The idle srew have to be opened t'ill you can see a wee bit of day between their tip and the butterfly flat, then gently go to contact and give them a half turn (again from memory).
Then you will have the base setting for the bike to start and adjust.
Your situation was that a mixture screw is giving way too much mix and the engine is apt to run on this one alone.
  
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #50 - 06/27/18 at 09:32:43
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georgesgiralt wrote on 06/27/18 at 02:12:09:
Your situation was that a mixture screw is giving way too much mix and the engine is apt to run on this one alone.


My situation in my mind is........ If it's idling perfectly at 900 rpm and I can't vary the RPM or quality of idle with either idle adjustment screw, am I actually idling on that ckt?

I've checked the butterfly's for daylight, I have backed off the adjusters for choke and throttle so there is no input with those ckts. I have agonized with the assembly of my enriching devices to make sure I have them correct. (thank you Barry for the most understandable instructions for their orientation in one of your posts)

A lot of my "head scratching" is that I really DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM, it idles correctly, no off idle lag, seems to pull well thru the gears at all rpm's(during my around the block testing under 65mph)....... the PROBLEM is that it is not acting correctly to adjustments. A similar situation would be a doctor telling a patient to take deep breaths while listening to his chest and detecting NO abnormalities. and as the patient puts on his shirt the Doctor notices that the patient has Duct Tape covering his mouth and nose. Huh Maybe the Doc and I should just go have a beer. Grin

R65Guy did hit on a fact with the O-rings. I had a devil of a time trying to figure out what O-ring went where. I could have the WRONG O-ring on BOTH idle screws(making both sides act the same or in my case NOT ACT AT ALL.  I'll look for new O-rings next.

Anyone have a source for O-rings where I don't have to buy gaskets and Diaphragms too ?

I'll be checking for information (got to go to O-ring school)on the rings as it looked like none of the rings I had, fit properly on any shaft that I was trying to put a ring on, either too lose or too tight. If anyone has a link to "O-ring school" I'd love to go there.
  

Joe Wilkerson
Telephone man with a splash of Data
Menifee, CA

Present:
1984 BMW R65LS "Herr Head"
past:
1979  R65   
1980  R65          
1982 R80RT 
1974 R90/6     
1972  R75        
1964 R50
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #51 - 06/27/18 at 13:11:48
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wilcom wrote on 06/27/18 at 09:32:43:
Anyone have a source for O-rings where I don't have to buy gaskets and Diaphragms too ?

I'll be checking for information (got to go to O-ring school)on the rings as it looked like none of the rings I had, fit properly on any shaft that I was trying to put a ring on, either too lose or too tight. If anyone has a link to "O-ring school" I'd love to go there.


In the 12 years I've had mine I've only ever use standard NBR O rings from a 400 piece Metric O ring Kit.  I use whatever seems to fit and have never had problems. But I do have the specified sizes and part no's for reference.


 
  

O_rings.PNG ( 6 KB | 3 Downloads )
O_rings.PNG

Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #52 - 06/27/18 at 17:15:47
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Joe, so your situation, is that you get no rpm response when adjusting idle mixture ??
  

'81 R65
'82 R65 LS  
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #53 - 06/27/18 at 18:12:11
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Bob_Roller wrote on 06/27/18 at 17:15:47:
Joe, so your situation, is that you get no rpm response when adjusting idle mixture ??


exactly:
Idling perfectly but unable to effect any change with idle mixture screws, screwed closed or fully open4-6 turns, no detectable change in the idle speed or quality at all

Video here of bike idling away 1 hour ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_9NIlrdlFc
  

Joe Wilkerson
Telephone man with a splash of Data
Menifee, CA

Present:
1984 BMW R65LS "Herr Head"
past:
1979  R65   
1980  R65          
1982 R80RT 
1974 R90/6     
1972  R75        
1964 R50
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #54 - 06/27/18 at 18:15:54
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I have had this happen, the idle jets were clogged .
The metered orifice at the end of the jet is almost impossible to determine if it is clogged or not .
If you take a can of carb cleaner, with the extension tube on the nozzle, place it on the end with the screwdriver slot .
Then cover the two sets of holes in the jet body to contain the cleaner, fluid should come out of the end if it is clear .
  

'81 R65
'82 R65 LS  
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!
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Re: Should this even be running?
Reply #55 - 06/27/18 at 18:34:59
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Bob_Roller wrote on 06/27/18 at 18:15:54:
I have had this happen, the idle jets were clogged


Let me give that a try in the morning, as I gotta work tonight.

I have had these guys apart 3-4 times, initially soaked in Berryman's and squirted thru every orifice I could find. But you have a point there. When I squirt in the orifice and I see it coming out somewhere else I assume it's OK...... but with multiple paths it could be squirting out 2 holes and there is a 3rd clogged. Good call, makes sense.

I'll report back.............
  

Joe Wilkerson
Telephone man with a splash of Data
Menifee, CA

Present:
1984 BMW R65LS "Herr Head"
past:
1979  R65   
1980  R65          
1982 R80RT 
1974 R90/6     
1972  R75        
1964 R50
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