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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) R860 in the making (Read 683 times)
Tony Smith
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R860 in the making
08/03/18 at 03:25:06
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Well, the day has arrived when there will be no more procrastination. It's time and the work that has been waiting (and waiting) will be done.

First there is the K100 front end to be fitted. As you can see some progress has already been made, The R65 fork legs and triple clamps are out and the freshly rebuilt K100 clamps and fork legs are ready to go in.

To go with the new front end there are new shoes to be fitted. Shinko 100/90 for the front and 110/90 for the rear. I'm expecting the rear to be a squeeze  but if the "mounted and inflated" dimensions on Shinko's website are accurate it will just squeeze in. If not, then a second 100/90 will be purchased and fitted to the rear.

And almost last, but not least, for the very first time I've opened the box that has been under the bed for quite some time. Tomorrow this happens as well.


So what decided me that this weekend was it? Well Siebenrock sent me some lovely stickers to put on the sidecovers. Sadly they will not be fitted int he short term, that would entirely spoil some fun I'm planning to have with some CB750 and Z900 owners in my restorers club.

The only thing missing is the ex-Wilcom final drive. It is all nicely rebuilt, but I damaged both cover gaskets in the process of fitting it together a number of times to correctly shim the new bearings. Bugger! That pleasure awaits the arrival of a new gasket and then I'll fit the final drive, you know after the 860 kit is "run in" and I've experienced the acceleration with the 32/9 final drive a few times. A couple of decades back before I was told not to do it anymore, I used to wheelstand the wife's R65/80, I wonder how an R860 will go at that trick.

first ride impressions hopefully by Sunday(ish).



PS Will I still be allowed to be a member here with my "Frankenbike" ex-R65?
  

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Siebenrock_Pistons.jpg ( 111 KB | 14 Downloads )
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860_stickers.jpg ( 53 KB | 13 Downloads )
860_stickers.jpg

1978 R100RS| 1984 R65 | 1984 XT350 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA
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Adrian
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Re: R860 in the making
Reply #1 - 08/04/18 at 04:39:36
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Hi Tony - I too have the Siebenrock conversion on my R65. Soon the bike will be run again on a daily basis - but I need some advice ........
.
What do you recommend for running - in the motor? Baring in mind I had the motor and gearbox completely overhauled with all new internals like bearings and shells and all that stuff.
.
My mechanic told me how he did it with his bike but I would be interested to hear your thoughts thanks ....
  

R65 1984
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Tony Smith
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Re: R860 in the making
Reply #2 - 08/04/18 at 05:27:54
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Adrian

I've always broken in newly built BMW airheads as follows.

Initial start with decent, but not best quality 20/50 or 15/40, whichever is cheap at the time - run on the bench until engine reaches full operating temperature, then shut down, replace oil and filter and reset valve clearances.

Refill with oil intended to be used long term - in the old days that was BP Corse, then Penrite 20/50 or straight 60. These days I use Pentrite 20/60 full zinc, although that seems to be going off the market and I will change to 20/70.

Opinions vary but I always regard the initial start up oil as a throwaway as it will have sealer residue, assembly lube and heaven only knows what else in it.

Run into a few small time consuming problems fitting up the K100 front end today, I suspect I may not finish in time to try a ride tomorrow, but with luck I will have it started.
  

1978 R100RS| 1984 R65 | 1984 XT350 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA
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Tony Smith
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Re: R860 in the making
Reply #3 - 08/08/18 at 23:44:57
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Ok, so as usual my progress has been glacial. I blame work, people keep ringing me wanting me to do work, this is a good thing because I have a major BMW habit to support.

To sum up progress to date.
The K100 forks are fitted, the Tarozzi brace is fitted (and the less said about that the better). I have some decisions and measuring, and some testing to do before going further.

The good news is that the K100 front end, as advertised is a "bolt up". The testing i have to do is to fit the bars and the tank and see if the bars hit the tank at full lock. If they do I am extremely fortunate in that the stock stop welded to the front of the steering tube is drilled, if I need to reduce lock I shall simply fit a bolt to that hole.

The second problem is a little more vexing. Onc eI fit the K100 front wheel the front is going to be about 1.5 inches taller than an R65, fork legs are actually pretty much the same length, but the K100 sliders are longer. This means that the stock R65 side and centre stands are going to be problematical. My choices are: (1) shorten the springs by an inch or so, (2) raise the fork legs about an inch in the triple clamps after making certain that will not result in the brace pounding into the bottom yoke, or (3) weld 1" square section onto the centre and side stands. The last would be the roughest looking, but I suspect that is the way i am going to go as it does not affect steering geometry or suspension action.

And now, the photos.

Well almost. I was not able to buy a 40mm blind bearing puller for a price I was prepared to pay, so I decided to use the old tried and true method I've used int he past and run a thin bead of weld from a stick welder around the inside of the outer race to shrink it (or at least provide purchase of a slide hammer).

Problem, I could not strike an arc, even after 150 attempts. I was really quite annoyed with myself because although I do very little welding now, I was once pretty good at it and in fact worked as a welder on the then new Australian patrol boats during University holidays. I was annoyed and embarrassed and eventually I was able to sustain an arc, but only at a much higher amperage than I should have been using on 2mm rods.I was only when I finished (and as you will see in the photos, my welds looked like the great steel pigeon with diarrhoea had come calling) that I realized that the problem was not all me or some weird fault in my old welder. I have forgotten the solar system now installed at out place. My poor batteries were copping the load of the welder and whilst they were able to service the load, the ramping up period was the cause of my problems. Looking later at the logs from the inverters as soon as I struck an arc (or tried to) they both went to grid supply in preference t inverter supply, followed a split second later by the hybrid inverter  using the battery bank to ramp up its output. in the period of that rapid switching the amperage fluctuated wildly which would have quenched the arc I was trying to maintain.

Memo to self. Next time I do some welding, shut the inverters down first.

So not the pictures. First the rectally incontinent steel pigeon's calling card .

Still it all worked out, the bottom race fell out and the top race required only the most gentle touch from the slide hammer.

And today, the new bearings are fitted and the forks as well.

And then, after verifying the forks were parallel, came that bloody awful brace. What a bastard of a thing to fit that was. Still its there and hopefully will make a positive contribution to the handling.
  

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1978 R100RS| 1984 R65 | 1984 XT350 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA
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Burt
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Re: R860 in the making
Reply #4 - 08/10/18 at 20:38:44
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Tony,

Firstly I would have no problem allowing the forks to protrude through the top, as long as it does not interfere with anything.  Of course it would be a balancing act regarding the rake and trail.  It is common to do on K100s, especially as a first step for the vertically challenged.  The K100/75 had the option of a short seat and they are increasingly hard to get hold of complete with all the doo dads attached. 

With the corresponding side and main stands, I am not sure what the size differences between K100 and R65 are.  More so as to whether they are a straight bolt in for the mounting points.  Perhaps the R80/100GS would be a more appropriate fit.   

As for the bearing outer races, I did something years ago on the R65 with the tack weld to shrink them then bash them out.  Cannot remember whether there was enough purchase but guess there was.  The night was more memorable for the pizza we bought.  It was one lower than the top rating of “fire truck” hot.  Definitely a case of ring sting the day after. 

The fork brace indicates that they are the earlier forks with the single piece mudguard.  The later ones with two piece mudguard come with a brace under the guard.  The brace that you have is hard to find as well. 

I guess in your Uni days you worked on the Attack class patrol boats.  Those buggers would have been made of steel.  Nowadays the Armidale class are made of alloy, and not very thick either.  I did some Reserve time on them up north.  Hard work at times but a lot of fun.  Maybe because I was with Cairns based crews. 

Cheers, Dave.
  

Black 1984 R65 - the Wombat
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Tony Smith
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Re: R860 in the making
Reply #5 - 08/11/18 at 00:04:49
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Burt wrote on 08/10/18 at 20:38:44:
Firstly I would have no problem allowing the forks to protrude through the top, as long as it does not interfere with anything.  Of course it would be a balancing act regarding the rake and trail. 


Yep, that's the problem and I've decided to not go that way, at least for the time being. In the short term I have an unused "sure foot" side stand and it has adjustable length - I reckon that'll do it.

Burt wrote on 08/10/18 at 20:38:44:
The fork brace indicates that they are the earlier forks with the single piece mudguard.  The later ones with two piece mudguard come with a brace under the guard.  The brace that you have is hard to find as well. 


Yep, a pair of the very earliest forks if my research is correct - they even have "Brembo" cast into the sliders.

Ah, the bloody brace. As far as I know I have bought the very last new Tarozzi brace anywhere on the planet (but Motorworks may have exaggerated). I bought it because the word was that the early forks badly need a brace and I paid a premium for it because making my own looked like a long and tedious task.  Anyway, I reckon the master moulds must have been getting a little old and tired by the time mine was cast, it is about 70 thou too long and in order to test fit it I had to put a scissor jack between the fork legs. The centre part of the brace will have a meeting with my bastard-cut file tomorrow. I'm also planning to replace the cheap and nasty cadmium plated cap screws with some nice titanium ones I happen to have  -  and yes I will coat them with anti-seize first.

Burt wrote on 08/10/18 at 20:38:44:
I guess in your Uni days you worked on the Attack class patrol boats.  Those buggers would have been made of steel. 


You are 100% correct, I became  quite good at down-hand and overhead welding so I used to get all the fun jobs, but then they paid me extra so at the time it was all good. The other fun job I used to get was welding the superstructure attachment strips to the hull - The Attacks had steel hulls and alloy superstructure, the way they joined the two was with special strips that were made by flashwelding under pressure steel onto alloy - you ended up with a metal flat bar that was alloy on one side and steel on the other. I used to weld the pre-cut strips to the hull and then the real gun welders would come along behind me and weld the superstructure into place. God how were hated those strips, the alloy boys at least were using argon shield gas but the powers that be reckoned I didn't need it. I learned to be VERY careful and fortunately never had a fire.
  

1978 R100RS| 1984 R65 | 1984 XT350 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA
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Tony Smith
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Re: R860 in the making - glacial progress continues
Reply #6 - 08/18/18 at 03:08:15
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At this rate I am going to take as long as Adrian, and it will not look as good as his!

I am going to have to find the Chinaman I offended and apologise. This week I've been a bit busy and then I did somethign stupid. I was moving the GSA and the pannier frame hung up on a door frame. Anyway I stumbled and the whole shebang nearly ended up draped over the bonnet of my wife's car, however I ammaged to save it all, at the cost of having the "cheese-cutter" footpeg scraping a divot out of my RHS shin and calf. It hurt like 40 bastards and was leaking blood and plasma everywhere. As soon as the pain allowed me I sprayed plastic skin over it (and biy didn't that hurt too) and bandaged it up and went on with the work I was doing.

Around 1:00am the followign mornign when I woke up shivering and sweating in 17 degeee "heat" it occured to me that perhaps i should have disinfected the bloody thing before sealing it up. A qquick look with a mirror and torch confirmed my fears - red and puffy with bright red lines radiating from it.

I peeled off the plastic skin so the doctor wouldn't know I was a complete moron and went nad got myself an antibiotic injection in the bum and a week's worth of "horse pills".

But the fun didn't stop there, Oh no, that would be too easy. A few years ago I had Dengue fever and that took me about a year to get over, periodically I get a mild fever and painful arthritis to remind me of how much fun that was. Yep, you guessed it, the arthritis hit me like a axe handle to the head, I couldn't do basic tungs like tie shoelaces and button a short for the first couple of days. After confirming that Naprosyn would not interfere with the antibiotics (it doesn't, but it does play havoc with the stuff I take for blood pressure) I decided that pain free range of movement was worth more than blood pressure that makes my GP go ashen faced.

So, by Thurdsay I was sort of a going concern and got stuck into paid work.

Today has been the first day in 7 days where I've been able to work on the bike.

That's my story and I'm stickign to it!

Well, I tried several different bracket strategies to try and retain a complete stock front plate. in the end I had to give up and cut the lower mounts off as the K100 forks are a bit narrower than the R65 forks. If I wasn't runnign gaiters I could probably just about get away with it, but I do run gaiters so I shaved off the entire bottom mount. I consoled myself witht he thought that if I ever need to revert to stock I can simply weld some tabs onto the bottom and nobody will be the wiser.

The instrument plate is now fitted, it has to come off tomorrow to cut the bottom bracket I made to allow the headlight and blinker cables to pass in front of the lower triple clamp.

I test fitted the front wheel, it is 1/2" off the ground with 1/2" blocks placed under the centre stand - I amd going to raise the fork legs 3/4" in the triple clamps and accordign to my string line calculations that will just about restore the stock R65 front end geometry.

It's all rapidly downhill from here - I have a new tyre to fit, I also have all the K100 brake lines to fit and I have a lovely mudguard and the special mounting bolts.

Then to start work on the top end of the engine - that should only take 1/2 a day.

Motobins parcel at the Po - it will be a 13mm master cylinder and a gasket set for the final drive. I am however still planning to ride it with the 32/9 final drive for a little while.

Here's some photos.
  

1978 R100RS| 1984 R65 | 1984 XT350 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA
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Tony Smith
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Re: R860 in the making
Reply #7 - 08/25/18 at 02:11:11
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Well, I got a bit done today - at least. Today beign the first day I've felt well enough to crack on a bit in the last fortnight.

Ok, so where am I up to?

Instrument plate is now finish mounted, and a number of times I have questioned my sanity for trying to keep the bike looking reasonably stock. But its done now.

Next photo shows some detail of the brackets made to hold the plate, the main difficulty was transferring the drilling to the plate itself, very difficult to pick up centres and transfer them

To my surprise and contrary to what other people who have put K100 front ends on their R65s (or had them put on) the OEM R65 stop gives plenty of clearance as between handlebars and tank. I obtained the handlebar mounts from a K100RT as they are a bit further forward than the RS. That involved cutting off the rearward projecting "horn" on each mount. Cutting cast iron with a hacksaw is an experience I'm in no hurry to repeat.

I've refitted the instruments and just had to do a trial fit of the instrument surround. When I rotate the bars further forward (and adjust the hand controls of course) it is going to fit just fine - YAY, the time I spent mocking up the plate mount and the handlebar mounts was well spent indeed.

Onwards and upwards tomorrow, fit new front tyre, brakes and mudguard and take it for a brief ride, then next time I've got half a day on my hands, its siebenrock time!
  

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Trial_fit_of_instrument_surround.jpg

1978 R100RS| 1984 R65 | 1984 XT350 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA
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wilcom
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Re: R860 in the making
Reply #8 - 08/25/18 at 02:56:43
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coming along nicely
Wink
  

Joe Wilkerson
Telephone man with a splash of Data
Menifee, CA

Present:
1984 BMW R65LS "Herr Head"
past:
1979  R65   
1980  R65          
1982 R80RT 
1974 R90/6     
1972  R75        
1964 R50
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Tony Smith
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Re: R860 in the making
Reply #9 - 08/26/18 at 05:01:12
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The first job  today was to fit a new tyre. I was dreading that job given the amount of pain I've been in for the last little while. I'd like to meet the person, or team, who invented Naprosysn, they are my heroes!

The next job has been to connect up the brakes. I absolutely approve of the idea of running brake fluid down the steering stem, it is a genius idea and BMW should have done it years ago!

As you can see i bought braided stainless steel lines when Motobins had then on special  last year. These are seriously good brake lines and getting ready to fit them I did some thinking.

The thinking was along the lines of - The wife's R65/80 has twin ATEs and a 13mm master cylinder, I've always thought the brakes on it are a bit "wooden". Standard K100s have a 13mm master cylinder and people complain how lacking in feel they are.

I have a brand new 13mm master cylinder and I also had a 12mm that operated the single Brembo on my R65 in its previous incarnation - I hated the brakes, but recognised that was a brake hose that was too long and frankly way too "springy".

Then I looked at the braided lines I'd bought and decided to give the 12mm master cylinder a go.

To cut to the chase, I haven't got all the air out of the system yet, but I have a rock hard brake lever at less than 50% travel, I predict this is going to be a winner!

I have to do some paying work tomorrow, but I'm hoping to adjust the bars, put on the instrument surround and  and take it for a brief ride tomorrow afternoon. Then later in the week, I'll swap the cylinders and pistons over.

I must say that without even riding it as yet I am 100% confident that the K100 front end is going to be a good match for the bike and will simultaneously allow my to have a bigger tyre (look at the photo, 100/90 - 18 - I can feel your envy) better damping control, better stiffness and better brakes.

In the course of this journey I've discovered myth after myth regarding fitting K100 front ends to airheads - they are mostly complete nonsense put about by people who have never done it. I'm here to tell you that it is a bolt up as easy as they come, and if I have not wished to retain the stock look I'd have been finished before I got sick.

And now, the photos.

  

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New_tyre.jpg
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Brake_Hose_Upper_2.jpg
Brake_hose_steering_stem_lower.jpg ( 148 KB | 10 Downloads )
Brake_hose_steering_stem_lower.jpg

1978 R100RS| 1984 R65 | 1984 XT350 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA
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Tony Smith
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Re: R860 in the making
Reply #10 - 09/15/18 at 05:48:54
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Yay! I am winning against this bloody miserable disease.

Did several hours work today and the result is - new carb diaphragms. all electrics now working (with the sole exception of the high beam indicator in the tacho - this remains a mystery) Pre-wiring done for volt meter and clock. Pre-wring done for USB ports and for LED driving lights, and lastly, I've made up the cabling for a permanent onboard connector for a batter tender.

It's also back on its feet for the first time in quite a while. The good news is that once I renew the welding at the top of the centre stand and renew the bronze bush in the side stand the bile will sit perfectly without me having to shorten up the front suspension at all - something I was never keen on doing.

I would have taken the old girl for a ride this afternoon  to see how that front end goes but just as I was about to wheel it out the door I noticed there were no pinch bolts on the bottom of the forks to clamp the axle. I'm pretty sure that nothing dire would happen as the axle is retained by the bolt in the LHS end, but I decided not to tempt fate - off to Bunnings tomorrow morning to buy some M8 stainless steel bolts.

If the planets line up I'll swap the cylinders out this week, subject to feeling well enough to actually finish what i start....


So close now....
  

Back_on_its_feet.jpg ( 280 KB | 10 Downloads )
Back_on_its_feet.jpg

1978 R100RS| 1984 R65 | 1984 XT350 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA
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Tony Smith
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Re: R860 in the making
Reply #11 - 09/20/18 at 01:28:24
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Well, I've ridden it.
Still 650cc but I wanted to get the front end grafted on and tested before taking a further step into the unknown.

The good news is that the bike was 100% rock stable up to 120kph and the front end feels firmly "planted". I was being very gentle as the  mold release wax is still to wear off, but even at this early stage I can feel significantly more front end grip, albeit at the expense of ponderous steering courtesy of the 100/90 front tyre.

The brakes......Oh my GOD! The thing stops like my GSA now! A combination of the original 12mm master cylinder with braided HEL lines and the twin Brembos means one-fingered braking until I re-learn the braking power available - the front tyre chirped several times until i adopted the one finger approach.

It's just a little too high for the center and side stand. The center stand will improve when I fix it and the side stand has needed a new bush for a couple of years. For the present I'll adopt the approach well known to R1100RS/RT owners and carry a 3/4" block of timber with 4' of string attached to it in the tank bag - when stopping you deploy the block and land the side stand on it and loop the string over the clutch lever - on departure retrieve block with string and stow in tank bag.

The only thing I am going to have to change is the fork fluid. As a starting point I filled them with 50/50 Fork 5 and Fork 10 - they are significantly over damped. I will drain and refill with straight Fork 5.

Overall I am as pleased as punch and will now, as health allows, fit the 860 kit.

  

1978 R100RS| 1984 R65 | 1984 XT350 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA
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Re: R860 in the making
Reply #12 - 09/20/18 at 19:52:55
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Tony,

Just an after thought if you wish to change the handlebars.  From memory the K series bars are:
- RS/S (sporty and low - more weight on wrists)
- RT/LT (wider and laid back - sit up straight)
- C (in between above and common mod on 75S)
and I think the Basic/T are the same or similar to the RT.  The diameter is 22mm not 7/8" if you wish to fit K series switch gear.  If you fit 7/8' bars then you will have problems. 

If you change bars then you will have to change to a different size front brake line.
  

Black 1984 R65 - the Wombat
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Tony Smith
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Re: R860 in the making
Reply #13 - 09/20/18 at 20:20:51
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Burt wrote on 09/20/18 at 19:52:55:
Tony,

Just an after thought if you wish to change the handlebars.  


Quite happy with the LS bars it has worn since I mechanically restored the old girl. My long, long term plan once the 860 kit is in is to graft a K100RS fairing, tank, seat, ducktail and plastic onto it. I reckon the K100 gear will look fantastic on it, and I just happen to have a surplus of K-bike stuff.

The even longer, long term plan is to convert to monolever rear end and use a K100 rear wheel.


And the really weird  long, long, long term plan is that I have found a mob in Germany who make a supercharger kit for airheads - you do have to make other arrangements for an alternator but the idea has sort of captured my imagination, it would be a bloody fast "sort-of" R65.
  

1978 R100RS| 1984 R65 | 1984 XT350 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA
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Re: R860 in the making
Reply #14 - 09/20/18 at 20:33:24
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The only things to be aware of re K100RS is that the alloy fuel tank can corrode at the lower points due to water ingress/condensation and the RS mirrors and pods are becoming decidedly rare on the ground.  Lanyards are a good idea there.  The seat, ducktails, etc are still in abundance.
  

Black 1984 R65 - the Wombat
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