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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) R65 Resurrection (Read 899 times)
TomHoldom
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R65 Resurrection
09/24/18 at 11:39:06
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OK here goes; I'm pretty much a novice so please excuse my ignorance.
I have a 1978 R65 which I bought around 20 years ago, used on and off for 10 years, then left for 10 years (undercover) and now am getting going again.
Battery obviously dead, but a friend hooked it up to their car and managed to get the engine to splutter back to life.

So I'm looking for advice on my next moves...

Oil change:
Before I do much else I was planning to change the oils
engine / gearbox / driveshaft / rear bevel ?
Currently with no battery not so easy to get the oil warm, can I do this with a cold engine?
Any advice on which oils?
Planning to buy the motobins oil filter exchange kit (code 01955A) which includes a new filter

b.t.w I had ear-marked the Power King PK-12180 12V 18Ah Sealed Lead Acid Battery (€46 in France) which fits in my enclosure - sound alright?

Front Disk brake:
Before I stopping using the bike there was a small leak in the front brake master cylinder. (which has now ruined the paintwork on my front mudguard)
At the moment I’m still stuck with trying to get the reservoir cap off (round type) as 2 of the 3 screws are turning without coming out, but assuming a can remove this, I was going to buy the £40 Motobins “Brake master cylinder overhaul kit (16mm)”, but wondered whether there is anyway of knowing whether this will solve my problem.
At the moment I’m trying to avoid changing to the later square reservoir as I understand I’ll need to change the whole throttle assembly

Fuel supply:
When I disconnect the pipe from the bottom of the fuel tap and turn on the tap, there is only a rapid drip which feels like its not rapid enough and might need clearing. Is there any way simply check my flow rate to check whether I need to disassemble and clean the tap - or is that obviously blocked?

Also on my first motobins order planning to include Carburettor rebuild kit (code: 60020A), and new air filter (code: 03200)

Obviously this just phase one to get the thing rolling again, and I would appreciate any help and advice on the above, and all the obvious stuff I’ve missed….
Thanks
« Last Edit: 09/25/18 at 22:44:22 by Justin B. »  
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Barry
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Re: Leaking Master Cylinder
Reply #1 - 09/24/18 at 14:38:14
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If all the oils were changed just before putting the bike into storage I would run the bike to get everything hot before changing them.  New oil doesn't deteriorate that much in storage, particular the transmission oils which don't have the source of contamination that the engine does.

If the oils weren't fresh then change the engine oil without doubt  before running the engine even if that means a cold oil change.  If the oil comes out looking terrible then you might want to drop the sump to clean out any settled sludge. In this case I wouldn't fuss about what oil to use as I'd be changing it again soon.

Battery sounds fine. Many of us are using cheap generic AGM batteries.

My round mater cylinder is all still original so I'm not sure what the Motobins kit includes. I doubt it includes the seal between the reservoir and metal body.

Fuel tap sounds obviously blocked possibly with stale fuel. I'd empty the tank to see what the state of the fuel is and what debris the tank contains. There should be a small mesh filter inside the bottom tap union which may be blocked. The tap can be dismantled, cleaned and rebuilt but it's a job that involves much swearing as you'll find out when trying to reassemble it.

Carbs will need a clean and rebuild with new O rings and diaphragm. Flat top Bings can have the diaphragm changed without replacing the whole slide assembly.  Other than the needle jet which is prone to wear there is no need to automatically replace any other jets if they clean up OK.  Floats probably will need replacement which you can check by weighing them. 12 - 14 grams is serviceable.

Round air filters last a very long so I wouldn't  automatically change it unless it's deteriorated or has a vast mileage on it.

Other things to look at ?  I'd be surprised if the Ate front brake caliper wasn't seized from corrosion.

  

Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45
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TomHoldom
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Re: Leaking Master Cylinder
Reply #2 - 09/25/18 at 08:23:55
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Hi Barry thanks for all that.

I'll definitely change the oil then (hadn't done it for some time before I stopped using it)
Should I do them all, or could I just change the engine and simply check and top up levels on gearbox, drive shaft and rear bevel?

for the engine oil I read a 20w - 50 is ok?
for the gearbox 75W-90? & is this the same for the drive shaft and rear bevel?

The motorbins kit for the master cylinder only includes the piston assembly, but the diaphragm is apparently also still available on http://www.capitalcycle.com in the states. My problem is that I don't know what parts I need, as I don't know whats causing the fluid leak.....I guess once (if.....) I manage to get it apart this may become clearer?

For the carbs should I add needle jets to my order ? Or is there a way to look at them to see if they need replacing?
I'll check the floats.

I have the twin Brembo disks fitted to the bike, but I suppose your comment still applies to these. Would it be sensible to take these apart before refilling the system with break fluid? (see photo; there's a fair amount of rust..)

Lastly (for now at least) it looks like it would be sensible for me to add a torque wrench to my tool box, which one of the following would serve me best:
28 - 210 Nm, 1/2 inch or 
7 - 105 Nm, 3/8 inch

Thanks again
Tom
  

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TomHoldom
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Re: Leaking Master Cylinder
Reply #3 - 09/25/18 at 10:13:39
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Hi just taken the fuel tap from the tank and its full of rubbish - obviously needs a good clean out. Any advice on cleaning products would be useful
  

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Barry
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Re: Leaking Master Cylinder
Reply #4 - 09/25/18 at 13:51:49
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TomHoldom wrote on 09/25/18 at 08:23:55:
I'll definitely change the oil then (hadn't done it for some time before I stopped using it)
Should I do them all, or could I just change the engine and simply check and top up levels on gearbox, drive shaft and rear bevel?

for the engine oil I read a 20w - 50 is ok?
for the gearbox 75W-90? & is this the same for the drive shaft and rear bevel?

The motorbins kit for the master cylinder only includes the piston assembly, but the diaphragm is apparently also still available on http://www.capitalcycle.com in the states. My problem is that I don't know what parts I need, as I don't know whats causing the fluid leak.....I guess once (if.....) I manage to get it apart this may become clearer?

For the carbs should I add needle jets to my order ? Or is there a way to look at them to see if they need replacing?
I'll check the floats.

I have the twin Brembo disks fitted to the bike, but I suppose your comment still applies to these. Would it be sensible to take these apart before refilling the system with break fluid? (see photo; there's a fair amount of rust..)

Lastly (for now at least) it looks like it would be sensible for me to add a torque wrench to my tool box, which one of the following would serve me best:
28 - 210 Nm, 1/2 inch or
7 - 105 Nm, 3/8 inch


Changining the trasmission oils is less critical than the engine oil provided an inspection shows there is no water contamination but given you need only a little over 1 litre of oil it might be safer to change them. 75w90 is fine for all 3 and 20W50 for the engine. 

Brembo calipers on a 78 are good news in many respects. It means they are not original and therfore not as old as the bike, they are less suceptble than Ate to corrosion and spares are much cheaper if you do need them.  Rust on the outside is not really a functional issue, it's whether or not the pistons have siezed. If they are not both free to move the brakes won't work and even too much stiction will cause the brakes to sqeal as the pistons will not retract. After 10 years I suspect you'll need to rebuild them.

Measuring needle jets for wear is a tricky business if you consider that the difference between one size of needle jet and the next size up is only 0.8 thousands of an inch. It therefore doesn't take much wear to make a big difference and you are not going to be able to measure that wear without accurate pin gauges which would cost more than new jets.

You can't do everything with one size of torque wrench but of the two the 3/8 wrench will be most useful.

The tap and therfore the tank are a mess and you will probably need to re-coat the tank inside. Not something I've done but you'll find lots of previous thtreads with a search.

  

Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45
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Justin B.
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Re: Leaking Master Cylinder
Reply #5 - 09/25/18 at 14:17:17
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I have done three tanks and found the POR15 tank liner to be the best, IMHO.  The tank on my '81 R100 was very nasty inside, original liner flaking off, etc.  I used Muriatic acid and sloshed and rotated it for about 12 hours and the inside of the tank was a nice matte gray with no liner or rust left.  After rinsing and drying I coated with POR15 and today the tank is still silver on the inside - after about 13 years or so.

You might want to think about a new fuel tap.  They are about £28.00 + S&H from MotoBins.
  

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Re: Leaking Master Cylinder
Reply #6 - 09/25/18 at 20:43:55
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If you plan on rebuilding the calipers take them apart first to make sure what size the piston are
Hopefully they are the standard 38mm 
Honestly I cant imagine riding the bike without rebuilding the brake hydraulics first   
« Last Edit: 09/26/18 at 21:27:02 by Mrclubike »  

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georgesgiralt
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Re: R65 Resurrection
Reply #7 - 09/26/18 at 02:09:11
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And change transmission oil too. Brittany can be quite damp in winter, so I won't be surprised there is some water in the transmission. At first start you will mix the oil and water and turn it into some cafe looking junk.
I second the advice about braking. Planning to be able to stop the bike proper has to be done before putting gas in the tank.
  
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Re: R65 Resurrection
Reply #8 - 09/26/18 at 09:37:47
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TomHoldom wrote on 09/24/18 at 11:39:06:
b.t.w I had ear-marked the Power King PK-12180 12V 18Ah Sealed Lead Acid Battery (€46 in France) which fits in my enclosure - sound alright?


I'd find an AGM battery instead, they last longer and require zero maintenance for about the same price.
  

'86 R65 with '84 motor ~66000 miles.  SS lines, Spiegler rotor, Progressive monoshock, Keihan silencers, a piece of Pichler fairing.
'76 CB400F ~26000 miles.  Weepy SS lines, big dent in the tank.
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TomHoldom
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Re: R65 Resurrection
Reply #9 - 09/26/18 at 09:39:13
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Thank you Barry, Justin B, Mrclubike and georgesgirait for your advise.

All oils are draining as I type....one issue already which feels like it could be a big one, is that the drive shaft filler plug came undone nicely, but then just continued turning having only lifted a couple of mm...so currently can't get out for refill and presumably it may not seal up well? Any advice?

I'll try and take my Brembo Calipers apart this afternoon.
Can you tell from the photo above whether mine are the twin piston fixed type (they appear to be from the Haynes diagram)?
When I'm ordering parts is there a specific reference I can give to be sure to ordering compatible bits.
For example on the motobins site there is a caliper overhaul kit Code: 23300A    BMW: 34 21 1 237 234 which is for R65 1985 and onwards - could it be this?

Barry, I'll add a couple of needle jets to my motobins order for when I rebuild the carbs - just to be sure I've understood the part you're talking about is the attached photo right (obviously I'll check the size before ordering)

thanks Justin B. I'll order some POR15 and sort out the tank.

Thanks all again
  

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Matt Chapter
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Re: R65 Resurrection
Reply #10 - 09/26/18 at 09:59:40
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TomHoldom wrote on 09/26/18 at 09:39:13:
Can you tell from the photo above whether mine are the twin piston fixed type (they appear to be from the Haynes diagram)?


You can tell by looking at the caliper that it's a single piston.  Since the '78 models came with ATE calipers, someone has done you a small favor and replaced the originals with Brembos.  Therefore, you can't go off of what the parts fiche says alone - you should measure the piston size and brake pads to determine exactly which caliper you have.  There are at least two different Brembo calipers used on the R65 from when the Brembos were introduced to '87.
  

'86 R65 with '84 motor ~66000 miles.  SS lines, Spiegler rotor, Progressive monoshock, Keihan silencers, a piece of Pichler fairing.
'76 CB400F ~26000 miles.  Weepy SS lines, big dent in the tank.
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Barry
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Re: R65 Resurrection
Reply #11 - 09/26/18 at 11:33:01
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Smart thinking Tom, in attempting to remove the filler plug before the drain plug. The various filler and drain plug threads strip easily if over tightened. They should not be more than 10 ftlbs and for filler plugs I use even less. It will need to be helicoiled.

Your calipers are twin piston in that there is a piston pressing on each brake pad as opposed to a single piston sliding caliper commonly fitted to cars.

The picture you posted does show the correct needle jets.

The work list is getting longer. I hope you don't find too many more issues.
  

Barry Cheshire, England 79 R45
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Justin B.
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Re: R65 Resurrection
Reply #12 - 09/26/18 at 13:45:44
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The small plug on the rear of the final drive is a sight plug.  It's best to leave this alone and remove the vent on top to pour in a pre-measured quantity of lube.

The "Junkyard Dawg" had this stripped as well so I drilled out the hole and made a threaded insert with M6 threaded hole, JB-Welded it into the hole, and used a SS screw with copper washer.  Worked like a champ!

On the POR15 kit, this is what I used along with the Muriatic Acid:

https://www.por15.com/POR-15-Motorcycle-Fuel-Tank-Repair-Kit-_p_106.html
  

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Re: R65 Resurrection
Reply #13 - 09/26/18 at 20:00:49
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Ok, the horse has bolted on a sympathetic recomissioning of the engine, given that you have already started it and this picked up a fair quantity of whatever crud was sitting int eh bottom of the sump and run it through the pump, into the filter, and possibly beyond.

Please do add a sump gasket to your purchases and take the sump off and clean it out inside, this is a good opportunity to find out if dire things are happening as is usually evidenced by metal fragments, clips and pins being found int he sump. Please note that the sump gasket does not need ANY sealants, adhesives, or magic potions to do its job, all it needs is a nice, clean mating surface. If you are having trouble getting it to stay in position whilst you offer the sump up to the engine prior to bolting it - a small smear of axle grease is the way to go.

Brakes.
Brembos have hard anodised, polished pistons and unless they leak when connected to a working master cylinder I'd be inclined to leave them alone other than fitting new pads, new stainless steel bleed nipples and some new rubber caps. I would count on replacing the hoses to the brakes as soon as practicable, this is a near 40 year old machine and they have had their life. Braided stainless steel lines are good.

Master cylinder
After the length of time your bike has sat, you can pretty much bank on the master cylinder being toast. Pull it apart and if the bore is undamaged, clean it up and put a new piston kit in it (and then go and buy a handful of lottery tickets). OTOH if the M/C is toast you have some decisions. If it is a "round" tank model, it is junk purely because you can no longer buy new tanks, I have several otherwise serviceable (or repairable) round tank M/Cs and I keep looking but cannot find new tanks. Even if yours is good it is still a time bomb as the seal at the base of the tank will fail and when it does it is game over because whilst it is just a simple O-ring, pulling the tank will destroy it 99 times out of 100.

If you have a square tank, then I'd buy a new tank (they are cheap) and O-ring, and possibly a new internal "baffle" (which are not cheap but are eventually ruined by brake fluid). Look on the front side of the M/C and it will have a number, most likely 12 or 13 which refers to its bore size. I would pay to have a square tank M/C sleeved in stainless steel before I'd buy a new one - the stainless sleeve will last forever and require only piston changes thereafter and will cost a lot less than a new M/C. There are some who say a sleeved master cylinder may leak - in which case it was done wrong. Correctly done the sleeve is frozen and pressed into a heated M/C body that has been previously bored to size - the resultant interference fit is NEVER going to leak. However, a brake cylinder rebuilder who does not have a precision lathe on the premises is likely going to use a bench drill and should be wearing a white cap and a black apron because he is a butcher, not an engineer.  Using a bench drill and adhesives works sufficiently often that many use that method and frankly with a sleeve going into a cast iron cylinder, yeah maybe. Into Alloy - no way......

If you do buy a new M/C, buy the latest brake lever as well, it may help you avoid a mismatch problem.

Fuel tank.

That needs to be cleaned and relined urgently. I've no knowledge of POR products, but a lot of people report positive results. A small tip. Once you have your new liner in the tank and you are about to put it aside to cure, lay it down upside down. The reason for this is that you inevitably end up with a "blob" of excess liner material and if that blob is always under fuel you run the risk of the fuel attacking it and getting through it to the steel and restarting the corrosion problem. Putting the tank upside down means the blob is permanently above fuel level and is less susceptible to attack.

Tank petcock.
Buy a rebuild kit, they are cheap. Also buy a new filter "sock" for it - that is the only fuel filter an airhead needs.

Carbs
Before spending a fortune on new parts, these carbs are VERY durable. If you have the "pissing fuel on your boot" problem, firstly turn your fuel tap off when you stop - your carbs are not petcocks (Bing told me so). If you have a persistent leak, take the float bowl off and jiggle the floats up and down a 1/2 dozen times and see if that cures it. This can take a while, I foolishly let my fuel system dry out and when I went for a ride last weekend I had to stop 11 times and do as above until all the crap in the fuel lines was flushed through. Obviously if you still have problems after the above, put a kit through your carbs. Do not wimp out on replacing he butterfly shaft o-rings, they are important. Do one  carb at a time as many components are "handed" - mixing handed components is bad....Very bad.

Further rant later.
  

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Mrclubike
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Re: R65 Resurrection
Reply #14 - 09/26/18 at 20:23:05
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You will have to dissemble the caliper and measure the piston  to know for sure what kit you need

All of these Brembo  calipers look the same but have different piston diameters
« Last Edit: 09/26/18 at 21:26:22 by Mrclubike »  

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