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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) stainless steel braided brake lines (Read 1757 times)
davidpdx
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stainless steel braided brake lines
11/26/18 at 09:58:47
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Anybody have a place they have bought stainless steel braided brake lines that they liked?
  

1984 R65 60K+
1946 Triumph Speed Twin

Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube.  That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…

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tiggum
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #1 - 11/26/18 at 10:19:17
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SPIEGLER USA, in Dayton, Ohio.  Good service, really nice product, with a good selection of colors, etc.  bought a set for my R65LS, which has twin calipers, for $179 and change and they shipped them to my door.  Slightly smaller diameter than OEM, so I need to find a better set of grommets for the supports on the fork legs.
Check them out at www.spieglerusa.com

Also Bob's BMW says they fabricate brake lines to your specs.
  
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davidpdx
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #2 - 11/26/18 at 10:37:50
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Thanks for the info, that looks like the place. Could you tell any difference in braking after you installed them?
  

1984 R65 60K+
1946 Triumph Speed Twin

Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube.  That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…

— Hunter S. Thomps
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #3 - 11/26/18 at 11:11:12
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I put braided stainless brake lines on all the bikes .
I too have Spiegler lines on the oilhead,'82 LS and the Guzzi, the '81 R65 has Luftmeister lines, been on the bike for 27 years .
No noticeable difference is braking .
  

'81 R65
'82 R65 LS  
'84 R65 LS
'87 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario
'02 R1150R
Riding all year long since 1993 .
I'll give up my R65, when they pry my cold dead hands from the handlebars !!!!!
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Tony Smith
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #4 - 11/26/18 at 14:10:50
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I have Venhill  lines on the R65, the GSA came with braided stainless brake lines OEM and the KLE has a (very cheap) braided line from the Chinese online seller Banggood.

I observe that generally that bikes fitted with stainless steel lines have a more "direct" feel due to there being no (or at any rate little) expansion in the line itself so all hydraulic pressure is available undiminished at the caliper. In the case of the R65 and the KLE I can offer a direct comparison pre-braided and post-braided lines.

In the case of an R65 I have a 12mm master cylinder feeding two K100 sources Brembo twin piston calipers. Whereas in its single disc, rubber hose guise the R65 brakes were not anything to write home about, indeed my wife described them as "dodgy", the conversion to braided lines has sharpened them up significantly - a single finger can lock the front wheel, and while the hydraulic ration has a lot to do with that I strongly suspect that with rubber hoses my 12mm master cylinder simply would not work with the 38mm K100 calipers.

The difference on the KLE is almost as stark - I am on record as expressing loathing of the KLE front brake and the poor braking effort and poor control that single sided calipers have in general. Swapping out the 1200mm rubber hose for a braided line has transformed the braking so that it is now almost acceptable, I attribute the transformation has being wholly due to the lack of expansion in the brake line.
  

1978 R100RS| 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA
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Justin B.
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #5 - 11/26/18 at 14:23:08
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I 'm not sure of the brand but I've had SS lines from Moto-Bins on two bikes.  The nice thing is they are cheaper than rubber OEM!
  

Justin B.

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1981 R100RT - Summer bike, NEKKID!!!
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Tony Smith
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #6 - 11/26/18 at 16:01:59
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Justin B. wrote on 11/26/18 at 14:23:08:
I 'm not sure of the brand but I've had SS lines from Moto-Bins on two bikes. 


Motobins have sold Venhill for a long time, the complete K100 set were under GBP50 on special when I bought them.
  

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tiggum
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #7 - 11/27/18 at 09:55:10
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I am very glad that you wrote that last statement about your R65's brakes.  So, the calipers on an R65 are 36 mm, but the calipers from a K100 are 38 mm......are the K100 calipers an otherwise simple substitution?  And do you find that the 38mm calipers are preferable?

I ask because I checked with an outfit here in the states which sells Moto Guzzi parts at a MUCH lower price than seen elsewhere, and tried to order rebuild kits for my R65LS calipers, but was told "No, all our calipers are 38 mm so we can't help you."  The price difference was significant, like $14 vs $43.  The firm is found at MGcycle.com, I believe.
  
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Tony Smith
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #8 - 11/27/18 at 14:53:08
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tiggum wrote on 11/27/18 at 09:55:10:
are the K100 calipers an otherwise simple substitution? 


NO!

Many people, including myself have been seduced by the cheap price of the K100 calipers and parts and bought them hoping to fit them to twin shock airheads. It will not work without a serious amount of engineering.

The reasons are, like many things, shrouded in the mists of time. When BMW (and other European manufacturers) decided to go to disc brakes many of them had the problem of previous models mounting spoked wheels, whereas the "new" models were being switched to cast alloy wheels (BMW "snowflake", Ducati - Campagnolo, and Moto-Guzzi - I forget).

To speak specifically to BMW, they made the Snowflake wheel to adopt the same spacing as the previous spoked wheel, even though with its superior strength and rigidity the Snowflake didn't need to do that.

The Brembo F08 caliper was originally designed to mount to wire wheels (Laverda, Ducati, Moto-Morini, Guzzi etc.) and was therefore a no-brainer for them.

Roll forward to the K100.

There was never a wire-wheel version of the K100 so the wheel spacing is much, much narrower - I have a K100 front end on my r65 and side by side the difference is marked.

Consequently the K100 calipers have an entirely different spacing to the earlier F08s. They can be made to fit by either machining the mounts on the forks (not recommended as a good idea) or by making a spacing bracket which restores the old centering. I have seen such brackets for sale on fleaBay, but at a price that makes the whole exercise pointless.

Unless you have machine tools, the costs to adapt the K100 calipers is in my opinion way to high, you could of course go "all in" and fit the 4-spot calipers from the later K100, they have the same bolting as the earlier calipers but would still require an adapting bracket. I actually bought a set of the 4-spot calipers as I thought that they would give ultimate bragging rights, but the K100 calipers work just fine with the 12mm master cylinder and to use the 4-spots I'd have to re-sleeve the master cylinder to at least 15mm.

I did toy with the idea of selling the 4-spots on, until I discovered that they are pretty much identical to the calipers on the GSA so I've retained them as spares for that, or in case any of my K100 projects ever crystallise into a running motorcycle.

Have a look in the misc tech list where I've been posting a running commentary on fitting the K100 front end, I've posted photos highlighting the difference in the calipers.
  

1978 R100RS| 1984 R65 | 1992 KLE500 | 2002 R1150GSA
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Tony Smith
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #9 - 11/27/18 at 14:54:06
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A more "tongue in cheek" answer would have been that the K100 calipers are an easy fit - right after you fit a K100 front end to your R65.
  

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Tony Smith
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #10 - 11/27/18 at 20:39:57
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Here is a photo that shows rather dramatically why you cannot fit a K100 Brembo to an R65. Note the amount of "meat" on the mounting side. The R65 caliper is on the right.
  

brembo_caliper_centering.jpg ( 108 KB | 24 Downloads )
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tiggum
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #11 - 11/29/18 at 20:59:32
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GOOD GRIEF!  Thank you for your more than comprehensive response(s); when someone asks a question of Tony Smith, he certainly gets a thorough response.

Thanks again.
  
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Tony Smith
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #12 - 11/30/18 at 00:52:14
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I should have gone with my "tongue in cheek answer" I suspect...
  

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tiggum
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #13 - 11/30/18 at 08:34:00
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NOPE, I appreciated both the "Tongue in Cheek" response and the thoroughly detailed response.  I would expect that the other users of this site would agree, as we all like highly technical responses and a sense of humor.
  
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Burt
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #14 - 12/08/18 at 17:14:56
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Tony Smith wrote on 11/30/18 at 00:52:14:
I should have gone with my "tongue in cheek answer" I suspect...


I take it the Magistrate does not appreciate your "tongue in cheek" answers, hence the longer version by default?   Roll Eyes
  

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Tony Smith
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #15 - 12/08/18 at 18:59:58
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I took a punt a few weeks back and ordered a 1200mm braided stainless steel brake line from the well known Chinese purveyor of nearly everything - Banggood for my much maligned KLE500.

It arrived a couple of days ago and I am happy with it, not as cleaver as Venhill, but at $AU15 including postage, what the hey....

Another Chinese seller was flogging similar cables in lengths from 300mm to 2000mm starting at $US6 to $US15

Actually I have mildly misstated - I also bought a 400mm hose too - I'm planning to hook that up on a test rig and pump it up to 1000psi - seeing as hand and foot operated motorcycle brake lines never see the brght side of 500psi, if it takes 1000psi without popping - good enough for me and design rules be dammed!

(if the 400mm hose survives testing it will become the rear brake line on the KLE)
  

kle_brake_hose.jpg ( 133 KB | 21 Downloads )
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Mrclubike
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #16 - 12/29/18 at 18:09:56
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tiggum wrote on 11/27/18 at 09:55:10:

I ask because I checked with an outfit here in the states which sells Moto Guzzi parts at a MUCH lower price than seen elsewhere, and tried to order rebuild kits for my R65LS calipers, but was told "No, all our calipers are 38 mm so we can't help you."  The price difference was significant, like $14 vs $43.  The firm is found at MGcycle.com, I believe.


But you can fit a New complete Brembo F08 caliper from them
Then you have a 38mm caliper that is brand new and cheap to overhaul in the future
It is a direct fit no mods needed
That is what I did 
  

Brembo_And_ATE_005.JPG ( 137 KB | 26 Downloads )
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Tony Smith
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #17 - 12/29/18 at 19:44:17
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If anyone is interested the Chinese sourced braided lines did not fail at 1,000psi. My mate with the test rig wanted to ramp up to failure point but I couldn't see that any worthwhile data would have been gleaned - I read once that bike hoses never see the bright side of 600psi.

Just as well they passed cause I'd already fitted the front one, I guess I'll go ahead and fit the rear now.

I do intend to watch them carefully but my thinking is that they have to be safer than 27 year old rubber hoses.

  

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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #18 - 12/30/18 at 06:01:39
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I did an experiment of sorts with a rubber hose to determine if they expand under pressure.

I had someone measure the outside diameter of the hose in several locations with digital caliper while I pulled as hard as possible on the brake lever with two hands, much harder than would be possible under actual braking.  I suppose it was two experiments as it also pressure tested the brake system.

No matter how hard I tried there was no measurable expansion of the rubber hose. It would have been much better to do this on a test rig under controlled conditions but it did make me question whether I really needed braided hoses. I know that brake hoses are a multi layer construction with the outer layer only really for abrasion resistance. I wonder if that is true of braided hoses as well as rubber, the real expansion resistance being a layer down surrounding the inner core.


  

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davidpdx
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #19 - 01/27/19 at 18:52:49
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  Yesterday I got my friend Bill to help me install my new Spiegler stainless steel braided brake hoses from the master cylinder to my front brakes and new high metal brake pads. These brake pads don't include nickel which is linked to cancer, who knew. It's almost like god didn't intend for us to inhale metal dust. I took the bike for a short ride after we bled the brakes (speed bleeder made it easy, thanks Rob) and I could tell that the brakes were improved but not as drastically as I had hoped. It takes a while for the new pads to seat in according to the package so I am hoping that they will continue to improve but we will see. Pretty easy job that took us altogether about two hours.
  

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Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube.  That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…

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Mrclubike
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #20 - 01/27/19 at 23:14:30
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Have you checked your master cylinder bore size
It is stamped on the bottom of it
My bike had to big of a master cyl when I got it
  

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davidpdx
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #21 - 01/28/19 at 20:00:53
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I will check. what size should it be?
  

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1946 Triumph Speed Twin

Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube.  That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…

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Tony Smith
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #22 - 01/28/19 at 20:55:45
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davidpdx wrote on 01/28/19 at 20:00:53:
I will check. what size should it be?


If you have a single disc - 12mm, but if you have twin discs it should be 13mm.

BUT, these things are old now and the master cylinder may well have been re-sleeved. The only definitive way to be sure is to measure the bore. For example my wife particularly wanted a "round " master cylinder to keep her R65/80 "more original" (its got an R80 engne for God's sake!) Anyway, you couldn't buy a 13mm round master cylinder as they were becoming extinct at the time, so she bought a 12mm and I bored and sleeved it.
  

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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #23 - 01/28/19 at 21:26:35
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Just as an example, my '83 R65LS (2 Brembo 36mm calipers) came originally with a 15 mm master cylinder, which was totally corrupted by years of sitting while still full of fluids.  I am replacing it with a NOS 14 mm master cylinder I bought from a friend.  I doubt that a change of 1 mm diameter will make too much difference (In this case, a slightly longer stroke of the lever and maybe replacing the pads sooner than one ordinarily would).
  
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #24 - 01/28/19 at 21:50:18
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tiggum wrote on 01/28/19 at 21:26:35:
I doubt that a change of 1 mm diameter will make too much difference



let us know......I'm betting you will feel quite the difference
  

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davidpdx
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #25 - 01/29/19 at 23:17:53
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I took a look this afternoon and it had 15 stamped on it. Maybe I am making this too simple but it seems like a larger master cylinder would put more pressure on the caliper stopping the bike quicker. No?
  

1984 R65 60K+
1946 Triumph Speed Twin

Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube.  That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…

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Tony Smith
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #26 - 01/30/19 at 05:42:50
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davidpdx wrote on 01/29/19 at 23:17:53:
I took a look this afternoon and it had 15 stamped on it. Maybe I am making this too simple but it seems like a larger master cylinder would put more pressure on the caliper stopping the bike quicker. No?    



No.

In fact quite the reverse. Hydraulic ratios are a bit like gears - if you want high speed and less torque you have a larger gear driving a smaller gear. OTOH, if you want lower speed but higher torque you drive the bigger gear with the smaller.

So, smaller master cylinder will pump less fluid to the calipers, but will be able to raise a higher pressure in the brake line for a certain amount of applied grip from your hand.

My R65 that now wears a K100 front end has 38mm calipers and a 12mm master cylinder. I am aware of the power of the brakes and have adapted to them. I do not allow anyone else to ride that bike unless I talk to them about the front brakes and have confidence in their experience/skills.

For the record, I can lock up the front wheel (with a 100/90 tyre on it) with my little finger alone. If I was honest it is a bit dangerous as if I forget and grab a handful of brake in a panic I am going to be in a world of hurt.
  

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davidpdx
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #27 - 01/30/19 at 11:35:03
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Tony, Thanks for the explanation. I guess I will be in search of a 12mm master cylinder. I am not planning to do any stoppies but I would like it better if I could depend on my front brakes stopping me as quickly as possible.
  

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Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube.  That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…

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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #28 - 01/31/19 at 09:57:01
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davidpdx wrote on 01/30/19 at 11:35:03:
I guess I will be in search of a 12mm master cylinder.


If a 15 mm was original equipment, going to a 12 mm would be too far.  If you've added a disc, then perhaps a 12 mm would be suitable.  If you want more brake pressure for the same amount of finger exertion, a 14 mm is probably more in line with what you want, bearing in mind that have some progression between "no braking" and "all braking" is nice.

I can't tell from your picture if you have dual discs or not, if you do, it may be worthwhile to see what the OEM configuration for a dual disc setup is.
  

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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #29 - 01/31/19 at 13:34:22
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I also wounder about how difficult it is to re-sleeve it down to a smaller size as I have a good working master cylinder now.
  

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Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube.  That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…

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Tony Smith
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #30 - 01/31/19 at 15:48:22
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davidpdx wrote on 01/31/19 at 13:34:22:
I also wounder about how difficult it is to re-sleeve it down to a smaller size as I have a good working master cylinder now.


Easy job if you have the machine tools, the hardest part is setting up the correct level of interference so that brake fluid doesn't leak out between the cylinder body and the sleeve.

Even if you pay a brake shop to do the sleeve it will still be cheaper than the cost of a new master cylinder.
  

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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #31 - 03/29/19 at 20:28:35
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Well the R65 forum does it again. After putting new braided brake lines and organic pads on I was still not satisfied with my front brake. It turns out I had a 15mm master cylinder mounted. Thanks to Mrclubike and Tony for explaining the need for a smaller MC I bought a 12mm off a wrecked R65 and mounted it today. I can't quite lock up my front tire but it dives down hard and scrubs the speed off nicely. Thanks for all your help guys, what a great resource. You may not have saved my life but then again you might have. David
  

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— Hunter S. Thomps
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Re: stainless steel braided brake lines
Reply #32 - 03/29/19 at 21:46:28
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You are Very Welcome
glad to help  Smiley
  

82 R65 and 2004 R1150R
Industrial mobile equipment Mechanic  for over 35years  
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